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Just received the letter from Steve Lipscomb at the W.P.T. and I think it's excellent. I have heard a lot from various pros with a lot more to lose than I have about this release the WPT has us sign. Even to the point of rumors saying no WPT in Aruba, etc. I have signed this release, the release for the UBT, etc, as have virtually all the top pros and top 50 p5s players, and I felt strongly that they were overstating this issue. I hope this letter helps calm the situation and gets everyone back on track.
I'm gonna sign it again in the Bahamas and this letter makes me think even more strongly that I can feel comfortable doing so.
I welcome any comments.
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beanie
(United States)
6,274
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Joined
01-20-2005.
12-23-2005 3:03 PM
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WPT has the ability to make anyone a star. I think the players will find out exactly how valuable they are in this process.
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jsbyun
(United States)
1,849
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02-07-2005.
12-23-2005 3:27 PM
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beanie demonstrates once again why he is my favorite poster on P5's.
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MKGB
(United States)
613
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Joined
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12-23-2005 3:30 PM
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I definitely can understand both sides of this issue. I think the irony of it all, is that without the WPT, many players wouldn't have been able to enjoy the large-scale publicity and notoriety that they do, unless they ABSOLUTELY KILLED the WSOP in any given year. So I find it somewhat ironic that these players that are lucky enough to receive endorsement deal offers from other companies, were able to put themselves in this position in large part due to the WPT ever being created in the first place.
Of course now that poker has blown up this big there will certainly be growing pains, and I fully comprehend why some players would take issue w/ the release form. I agree w/ Andy, and any others, who think that there should be some form of 'poker union' that allows players to more effectively get results when it comes to protecting players' best interests. However, I'm not sure how or when this would happen, and also, it's important to realize competing interests between players and companies like WPTE existed before they became big, but now that they are big, they can use any public forum to try to persuade others into also not playing. I hope they can iron out this issue so anyone and everyone is able to play WPT events w/o feeling slighted or abused, but at the same time, considering how big poker has become there should always be someone willing to step into these players' shoes and fill these events up... the sharks who were made famous by the WPT can go play against each other in their own Bellagio homegame, and I think that would be fine w/ most of us who would rather play against weaker opponents anyway.
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Hi everyone!
I want to start off by saying that I think this board is awesome. It is so nice to see a group of people who just really care about poker and aren't interested in gossip and sniping. I read this board everyday and have found it awesomely helpful in developing new features and tournaments for UB. You guys are great!
This is my first poast because this WPT issue is a really important one. I would like to address a few things Steve says in this open letter.
1) The new release from the WPT gives them the right to use your image in any and all media...not just to promote the WPT show itself. This means they could put your image on, for example, a WPT slot machine, T-shirts, Posters, books etc without your approval or any compensation to you. In other words, by signing the release you grant them all licensing rights for free to your image.
2) Steve asserts that all media companies use a similar release. This is patently untrue. ESPN's release, for example, only grants rights for use of your image and name to promote the show itself...in commercials for example. This is a much narrower release and other releases I have signed for TV appearances are the same...they grant rights for only promotion of the show itself.
3) There is a sentiment that because the WPT made us well-known that we owe them. First, remember we pay our own buy-ins and entry fees. It is our own money we play for.
Second, consider the logic here. Without the NFL there would be no Tom Brady, Joe Montana, John Elway, etc. Without the NBA there would be no Shaq. Without the MLB there would be no Johnny Damon. Would anyone expect these guys to grant those organizations the right to licence their image to Nike, Reebok, Sprite for free much less pay to play football, basketball, baseball? Of course not. That would be absurd.
Yet this is exactly what the WPT is asking. They are saying if we want to enter a WPT licensing deal with Nike then Nike can use your image with no compensation or approval by you and the only one that gets paid for those licensing rights is the WPT.
Hey, pay your 10K buy-in (I have no issue with this part), pay a $500 fee to the casino and hand us a few hundred thousand in licensing rights on the side because we made you.
4) Lipscomb claims that he would never abuse the players in that way. Then why doesn't he put that in writing? He mentions the banner add promoting their online site with player images that looked like an endorsement. Notice he says it was perfectly legal to put that banner up. He took it down out of the kindness of his heart. Well...put it in writing that you can't do that or we are putting ourselves at risk by signing the release.
5) He claims that is you have played and event before you have already signed the release and have granted those rights so you might as well keep playing now. This is not true. the languae was drastically changed at Foxwoods to grant much broader rights. A player who only signed releases up till Foxwoods this year would win in court if a licensing issue came up. Not so after Foxwoods.
6) Lipscomb keeps crying poor about the WPT and how rich all the Full Tilt people are. First, no pro owns Full Tilt...that would be illegal. They own part of a software company that develops software for Full Tilt and to say otherwise is irresponsible.
Second, None of them has made money yet as Full Tilt is not a public company and there is no way to cash out equity. Granted there is a potential for money but that depends on a lot of good things happening.
Meanwhile the WPT has gone public and Steve has cashed out 20% of his holdings. I believe, at least I have been told, that is in the 8 figures. Don't cry for me Argentina.
7) Steve claims he went to bat for the players to get logos. This is just not true. We were promised logos in year two by him when the WPT first started and we agreed to show our hole cards. That did not come. His reasoning, which I know from conversations with him at the time, was that it would take away the WPT's ability to get a title sponsor. The value to a beer company for being the title sponsor of the show would be less to the WPT so they would make less money.
We only got logos after every other showed allowed them and articles started getting printed about the issue. The WSOP has been allowing logos for years and the WPT just hopped on board this year when it became clear players would play other events that had logo in prefence to the WPT. That is not going to bat for the players...it is caving into financial pressures.
8) While the release indeminifies the WPT against lawsuits by the player signing the player is not indemnified in any way. If a lawsuit resulted from the way they used your image or name in association with a wPT venture you would have to pay all your legal fees etc. The wPT does not indemnify the player at all nor are they require to show proof of insurance against such an event as the release reads today. You indemnify them but they do not indemnify you. It is a one way street.
There is so much else to say on this issue but this is already so long.
I am very grateful to the WPT for all it has done for me in terms of business oppportunites that have opened up to me because of the explosion of poker. The WPT has certainly contributed to this as has ESPN and online poker. They are a part of the puzzle but that does not give them the right to exploit my image in any way they want, without compensation, approval or indemnification. They say it does. Players disagree on the issue.
Happy Holidays!
Annie Duke
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beanie
(United States)
6,274
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Joined
01-20-2005.
12-23-2005 6:09 PM
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Other than complaining what recourse do players have? If the WPT said they would not change you would be forced to make a decision. This is gambling. If better gamblers decide not to play WPT events this could have the opposite effect of what the players want.
Everyone was rooting for competition a few years ago and now we have it and still nothing has changed.
I have said it before and I will say it again. This affects about 20 and at the most 50 people in the poker world. Why should the rest of us care? Most invitationals are incredibly exclusive and it is incredibly difficult to break into the inner circle that many of the top players have created.
Why should we join the fight when we stand to recieve no benefit whatsoever?
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NeBlis
(United States)
428
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03-12-2005.
12-23-2005 6:11 PM
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Nice post Annie. Guys i work inadvertising and this kind of blanket release is NOT standard. The origional release was too broad IMO and the new one is a fuggin Jopke. And as far as the WPT not making money all i can say to that is SMD if they arent making money then no one can. Running your books in the red is not making no money it just means that the partys involved are sucking out all the profits.
NeBlis
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Azone
(United States)
939
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04-03-2005.
12-23-2005 6:33 PM
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Annie, welcome to the site, and a great post. Why are the pro's such great posters (i.e., Blair Rodman).
Beanie, you keep saying that we get no benefit. I guess the point is that if you won a major tourney, you would get benefit, and therefore if you represented another internet poker site, you would have a real conflict/problem with the WPT using you for advertising of their WPT poker site. You may even lose your endorsement from that site b/c of the conflict.
But that would only be if you won. Since only 10% are in the money and only a select few make the finals, then why should you care.
Let me give you a few reasons why you should care:
1. Are the players right?
2. You may do real well one day, contrary to your belief this is not possible.
3. Your point the the "common" player should not care b/c he does not win and he has no rights anyway is the exact reason that owners should feel pressured by some organization for change! This will help change that I ultimately feel will be better for all involved.
I am not a big "union" guy, but having an agreement that threatens the endorsement capability of players in other ares of this business when the WPT is a a tourney that winnings are 100% derived from the pockets of these players seems a bit ludicrous and overbearing.
And whether that has any affect on me at all really does not matter-it seems just pretty obv on it's face that it is wrong!
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beanie
(United States)
6,274
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12-23-2005 6:34 PM
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I have the utmost respect for Annie Duke. I currently make a living in poker and that is a direct result of Annie Duke's influence. I will always be thankful to her for that.
My point is and will always be that the average guy will gladly sign away all of his or her rights because there is no potential for them without it. Even with a win how much has it helped John Stolzmann as an example. The system that the WPT has created is in no way short of the same system top players have created by excluding the poker public. It is virtually impossible to crack knock down the wall top players have created for themselves. Unless of course you win the WSOP. I think if the average guy had seen more of a willingness to be included we might have your back. This isn't the case.
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Here is why you should care:
The WPT is trying to lock up the rights of players before they become well known. I think they understand that people like me, Howard, Chris Ferguson and, I understand, now Daniel won't play under these conditions. For one thing we can't because it would violate exclusive licensing deals we have with other vendors to sign the WPT release.
Well you should care because if you become good at poker you might be well-known enough that your licensing rights become valuable. You might just win an event. You might become the next David Williams or Joseph Hachem. And if you sign away those rights in advance because that is the only way you can play a WPT event then all the business opportunites available to you through your hard work and talent will be worth nothing to you.
Do you think a rookie unknown running back should swign his rights away to the nFL just because he is an unknown when he plays his first game?
Just because you don't think it will ever effect you doesn't mean you should sign a legally binding document that no lawyer on the planet would ever advise you to sign.
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Adam
(Costa Rica)
11,354
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12-21-2004.
12-23-2005 6:49 PM
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Hi Annie, welcome to our site.
I just want to say I agree with you that Beanie is no good.
:)
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sheets
(United States)
2,216
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Joined
01-29-2005.
12-23-2005 6:59 PM
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I am going to put on my simple man hat for just a moment....
If a player feels that the wpt tournaments reuire you to sign a release form that is unfair to you in some way, then do not play in those events. Competition is a wonderful thing, and if another organization such as espn runs tournaments which grant the players a better shake, then the players will play in those instead.
I cannot comment on profits, but I believe this is besides the point. The wpt does not have to pay the players if it doesnt want to..they do not have to put up entry fees. The wpt is buying the rights from the casinos to broadcast the tournaments and can restrict or exploit the images filmed therin however it wishes. I think we could do withou the characterization of the players as "our players" by wpt, but in a way its true. The players willfully signed the agreement and thats the end of the story. If they dont like it they can play in other events.
I am not sure what beanie is saying...a new top player is created every day. Who was Michael Gracz a year ago? Who was Josh Arieh? Within the epoker ciommunity they were always great players but TV brought them the notariety which they have parlayed into bigger and better deals. Who was Phil Laak before tv...an unknown genius...now he is a marketing empire. So i think the wall of top players grows every day.
Wow this was supposed to be very succint and short, and I have rambled...sorry.
Happy Holidays everyone...
sheets
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beanie
(United States)
6,274
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Joined
01-20-2005.
12-23-2005 7:36 PM
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While they have recieved some measure of fame they have not cracked the inner circle. Phil Laak was one of the first people signed by Brian Balsbaugh he was known enough to get represented. They get told what to do by a heirarchy that has been created by an old boys network.
Sheets the casinoes pay the WPT.
When the NFLPA approaches EA Games they are representing the group. When Doyle or Annie is pitching something to GSN they typically aren't looking to include people like us. Since this is gambling why isn't the option to buy in and exclude people based on what they can afford an option?
I don't think Annie is correct in stating that the WPT is trying to lock up my likeness at a cheap price. This isn't about me or any of you, this is about the haves having a disagreement based on 2 issues:
1) The WPT is using likenesses of people that gladly signed away those rights to participate in events. Whether that is right or wrong shouldn't this have been a bigger issue earlier.
2) The WPT has an online site that directly competes with the stars that play in its events.
Sure would be fun to just let the market dictate what would happen here. Frankly, I think events without Howard Lederer, Annie Duke, Daniel Negreneau and Chris Ferguson would appeal to me more not less.
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beanie
(United States)
6,274
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01-20-2005.
12-23-2005 7:40 PM
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Annie knows better than most that I have no ability, therefore, signing away rights that are basically of no value in the first place is of no consequence.
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beanie
(United States)
6,274
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Joined
01-20-2005.
12-23-2005 7:44 PM
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If you are going to talk union to me you are going to have to show me some instance where top players have looked for an inclusive solution to all poker players.
Pro sports unions were paved by major players making huge sacrifices for the total good.
A players union in poker would never work.
The players knew from second one this was going to be the case. Annie, Howard and a select group of players were hand picked by the WPT to be represented and they jumped on board. They are now off of that train because they have found a more lucrative train. Market economics at work.
If top players boycott PokerStars (almost none of them went anyway last year) and Tunica and the numbers are down significantly then I think the WPT should be concerned. This boycott was supposed to start at the Bellagio and almost everyone ignored it.
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Why does this all have to happen now? Is there no way that these pros
could continue to play while negotiating some kind of deal that
satisfies both parties? I been bustin my butt for over 2 years to
get into a wpt tourney, I finally do and now some people whose play I
have great respect for are gonna boycott. I'm sorry if I don't
sound too understanding about this but, average joes like me don't get
an opportunity to play in a wpt event very often. There is no way
at this point I could financially afford to buy-in to a main event on
the wpt or wsop so satelliting my way in online is the only
option. To take away the opportunity to meet and play against
some of the top players that is earned by winning one's way in is just
sickening to me. Annie, I enjoyed your post, I like watching you
play and I hoped to meet you and the above-mentioned pros. Guess
it won't happen. My 2 cents. Merry Christmas
oh yah Fbeanie!!!
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