Poker Discussion Post

i dont think these are the kind of questions that charder was referring to, and wouldn't personally feel comfortable addressing any of them, except that JJprodigy's name should be nowhere near this thread.

 im assuming he meant questions addressing the issues that this thread has raised i.e. softplaying, etc.  anything that is business-related i.e. the terms of the deal is private to all involved.  and i knowww that no one who is a major backer that you don't already know about is gonna want to have their name up here along with the coutnless begging PMs it'll bring.

GambleAB:

poguemahone68:

Why do a lot of successful players who post on here sound like complete dicks when they post?Almost every post I read of Wacos, he sounds like such a dick. Dude, we get it, you're great and know everyone in poker and everything there is to know about poker.

The only issue I see with all the backing and it doesn't specifically relate to Bax/Sheets is that if there are say 4 left in a tourney and 2 of them are backed by the same person, there is a higher chance of them playing each other differently than the other 2 players.

They all root for each other and get pissed when someone sucks out on one of their group. It is not a stretch to think that players in the same stable who are also friends as a result of being in the same stable will play each other differently as opposed to players they don't know.

It has been said numerous times though and I believe it too. There hasn't been anything shady revealed about the Bax/Sheets backing operation.

Monopolies suck.

Someone above also made a good point about when EV begins to go down as a result of having too many horses in a race.

I think there are some good points of discussion in this area, as long as secret handshake assholes like Waco can actually contribute rather than ridicule and noobs read more than type, lol.

 

 

1.  People get understandably upset when other people accuse them in a roundabout way of doing something against the rules.  Also, why shouldn't Jared express his knowledge?  If someone who doesn't know much about the inner workings of the poker community states something that he feels is true, and someone else who does have that knowledge wants to refute that, isn't his knowledge pertinent information?  I think it is. 

 

2.  Your example makes no sense.  I have a decent amount of friends that I see in tournaments, and of course I want to see them do well but I don't know ANYONE who is selfless enough to want to see their friends make money at their expense.  Why would someone play differently against a friend if it is going to cost them money?   

I certainly understand about defending against accusations, just didn't seem that was the case with Waco's posts here and other times. Even in his post that was directed to me, I'm just another idiot who is fucking up his precious board.

It's llike when SCTrojans would come into a thread and simply say, "you played it like a retard" rather than explaining why the guy played it like a retard.

And I think you didn't understand what I was saying with your #2. Tell me if this makes sense:

4 players left. 2 of them will make 1st and 2nd and the majority of the remaining prize pool. If 2 of them are horses in the same stable and also friends, of course they would want to keep each other alive and knock the other 2 players out. How does that not make sense?

I'm certainly not saying that backees of the same stable or friends do play each other differently than other opponents, just saying there is incentive, even if it's just that you want to see your buddy make more than a random.

I've also found the opposite to be true where friends play each other even harder than other opponents, as they want to better each other for various reasons.

And Waco, I don't know you obv, so I'm not saying you are a dick, just that you sound like one in a lot of your posts I've seen in PD. I think you have the opportunity to enlighten and teach, but just take the low road so often, maybe out of frustration? Keep in mind, we all don't know all the things you do about poker and the poker world.

Rimz:

Questions for pbdrunks, charder, AJK, whoever eles wants to answer

 How does your backing arrangment work? % wise? Do all players get the same deal?

Most deals have makeup, after makeup, the backee will ussually get between 40-50%, not all players get the same deal. (The more profitable you are, the better a deal you can get obv) 

Do you get backed for all online tournies or only the ones you choose? All live tournies?  Say you goto your local cardroom and win a tourney (w/o the backer knowing) do you still split? Again, not all deals are the same, and I'm sure some people fall into each category. The main thing is that everyone is clear (before the tourney begins) what is part of the backing deal and what is not.

Approx how many players are backed by bax/sheets in a ave 100R? I dont care about names...

no idea on this one, as I dont play it very often 

Does anyone back small to medium stakes?? :) (I want in)

Yes definately. ("Prove" you are profitable to a backer and you can def get backed-plenty of money floating around the poker world.) 

Who are the other big backers? Durrrr, Daut, JJprod? Is JJprod still playing online, does anyone know???

I don't know how "big" of a backer they are but all of the people you mentioned have done backing (and prob still do). Other known backers include Timex, Erick Lingren and the Mhrep company. 

I will probably think of more soon.....If any of these Q's are private info just say so...

 

 

Another questions to add to this list:

 Do the backees know who the other backees are?  A lot of this thread has been about soft playing other players who are backed.  That would only happen if they knew who else was backed.  The OP was asking who is backed and it seems that no one really knows who is currently backed.  If Sheets said he would back me today, who he give me a list of his other horses?  I don't think so.  So there may be a few horses who know who the other horses are but I think there is probably more speculation than hard facts with respect to who is in the empire.  Am I wrong? 

Ari:

I've sat at the same table as my backer (ryan daut) and he told me nothing in advance/during/after to indicate that he wanted me to play soft against him.

I've sat at the same table as a friend, and he got angry with me after i bluffed him out of a middle size pot.  I think this is a much bigger issue, business is business and most people realize that, but when friendships are involved I think alot of people become inclined to play soft. Not much can be done about it though

Totally agree with this and mentioned it above.

I think the fact that a lot of the players who are backed by the same person/entity are also friends with each other may cause people to think there was soft play.

Most of you have probably been in the situation where you are 3 handed and your 2 opponents are friends and you know it. I know I have been and knew the 2 of them wanted me gone so they could be heads up, especially if one of them is shorter stacked than I am.

So I think the bigger issue is friendships at the tables where softplaying is concerned, not backing relationships.

poguemahone68:

And I think you didn't understand what I was saying with your #2. Tell me if this makes sense:

4 players left. 2 of them will make 1st and 2nd and the majority of the remaining prize pool. If 2 of them are horses in the same stable and also friends, of course they would want to keep each other alive and knock the other 2 players out. How does that not make sense?

No, that makes no sense.  If you are playing in a poker tournament you want to get first.  If you care about another person making it farther, then you are costing yourself chips, which costs you money.  If given the choice between knocking a friend out 4th and having a 80% shot of winning or keeping a friend in the tournament and having a 40% shot at winning, I am knocking them out 100% of the time.  Anyone who tells you differently is lying. 

So here is my take on the situation.

I dont think Pluv is so out of line in his feeling that backing groups in general create the chances for soft play and colluding.

However accusing to well respected players such as Sheets and Bax is wrong. These two guys are very respected in the poker community and I think them endorsing soft play is off base.

Is there backing situations that are issues to the poker world? absolutely, but i think the wrong tree is being barked up.

I commend charder, pbdrunks, etc. for coming out and saying they are backed.  The problem with keeping business transactions secret is that it makes them look shady, even when there is nothing shady going on.  I guess I just see no reason why bax and sheets would not want their "empire" to be transparent.  The actual nitty gritty details of each deal should obviously remain private, but I see no reason to keep their list of horses a secret. 

 I personally have no real worries about soft play with most backing deals because it just doesn't make sense - as a backee, if I'm getting 50% of my profits why would I do anything to lose chips and make my profit decrease; likewise as a backer, I am assuming that if I'm in the same tourney as a backee that I would have paid my own way and am getting 100% of myself - so why would I dump chips so that I'd get 50% of my backer's profits rather than 100% of my own?

I am unsure why so many people want to bring sheets/bax backing empire under fire.  They are the most legitimate, respectful backing duo that have nothing less than 100% integrity.  However, there are a ton of other backing arrangements that are shady.  No one ever finds out about them simply because they are shady so nothing is ever said.  Everyone knows about sheets and bax because there is absolutely nothing shady about their arrangements

I never accused anyone of cheating.....i just said it increases the chances.

I believe Monoplies suck though and this is why i view it as a negative on the industry.

Its soo retarded to think that Sheets/Bax would collude with any of their backees and more retarded to think that any of their backees would collude with each other.

 I don't even think it has anything to do with ethics.  It's just bad business and not worth it.  They know that their business and their lives is constantly being watched by the rest of the world, and even one hh of collusion could ruin everything they have going.

 
 And like Randers said, it's not that hard to figure out who they back if you really care that much.  I know pretty much everyone just from being observant.

I do not think by a long shot that the backing members of Sheets and Bax are a monopoly. Are they the largest? I suppose so? Are they the most successful? probably? Do they have a monopoly on the backing in the poker community? I don't think so....

I guess Bax/Sheets must go through an extensive interview process.  From what i am hearing all of their players have the utmost morality and play by the rules at all times.

I wish there were more people in the poker community like this. 

LOL @ never accused anyone of cheating. I pasted some of your comments below because someone else must of hacked into your account.

i meant by name...i never called anyone out directly....but yeah...i still believe all i wrote..

am i wrong...maybe...