Poker Discussion
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CarbonPoker · Full Tilt · Cake Poker · PokerStars · Ultimate Bet · Players Only · Bodog
As some of you know, I have been teaching Low-Limit SNG classes recently, with tremendous success, and improved results for the vast majority of my students. After my 50th lesson, I have noticed I am correcting the same leaks for very many of my students.
I want to share with you the most common mistakes I am seeing, and the best fixes for each:
- Playing at a level above their head on a regular basis.
Many students, who are proven winners at the $5.00 level are playing mostly $10 SNGs, for a losing ROI. I suspect this is because they feel they can dominate the lower level, and at one time, had a measure of success, or a hot run at the level they are losing on.
Keep good records, and take an honest look at your ROI. If the level you are beating is running at 15% or less ROI, in most cases you have no business moving up. Let's say your ROI is 12% in $5.50 SNGs (.66 profit/SNG), you are going to need a 6% ROI in the $11 SNGs to acheive the same profit. It isn't going to happen. Keep results over a long period of time, and honestly examine them. It is our nature as poker players to challenge ourselves. Be sure not to take this to the extreme.
- Playing too many tables at once.
From my experience, Multi-tabling causes about an 8% drop in ROI (of course this varies, depending on the competency level of the player trying it.)
Therefore, I recommend no less than a 16% ROI at the current level you are playing, in order to try multitabling.
Example: Mark Multitabler has a 5% ROI (avg $.50 profit) in the $10 SNGs, but wants to play four at once. Under the best circumstances, Mark's ROI will be slightly negative. (appx $1.20 loss per session)
This usually occurs due to boredom. If you are paying attention to the table you are on, even when not in the hand, trying to pick up betting patterns, you will not be bored.
- Playing poor hands out of position.
Many players are playing any ace, suited connectors, or any two paint cards, in any position. Position is one of the keys in poker, and the earlier you enter the pot, the stronger hand you must have to realize a profit playing the hand. Nine handed, under the gun, this means playing AQ or better, if unpaired, and hands like any ace, and paint cards should only be played in position, and much of the time, only if the pot is unopened.
- Calling raises with inadequate values preflop.
Many players are calling raises with hands such as KQ and AJ, and in many cases, much worse. Calling a raise should be seldom done. Most often the proper action is to reraise, or fold. Folding AQ, or a medium pair should be standard against most raises from early position, as you will often end up playing a guessing game.
- Not believing opponents might have a hand.
Many players are calling big bets with marginal hands, failing to realize the bettor may very well have a hand. Some players instantly put their opponent on a given hand and keep that thought in their head without an open mind that their initial read could be wrong. They see an opponent bluff once or twice, and then think they have nothing and are just trying to steal the pot. Be sure that you have a solid read before you make a marginal call.
- Failing to respect a check-raise.
Most low limit players do not have the wherewithal to attempt a check-raise bluff, and a check-raise is almost always consistant with a huge hand. Even if you have a very good hand, you need to be cautious about proceeding here. Folding is usually the best option.
- Bluffing loose opponents too frequently.
Many players at these levels call any bet with even a shread of a hand. If you are going to try a big bluff, ensure that you have some type of read that says you will likely succeed, or make a play at a pot that has been uncontested thus far.
- Failing to bet enough to chase draws out of the hand.
I'll see a player bet 100 into a 400 pot with top pair, or bet half the pot into a scary flop that could easily be damaged by a bad turn card. Many players at this level will chase very many hands, and you need to make them pay to outdraw you. If not, you are going to feel unlucky.
Most bets should have teeth. 2/3 of the pot is a standard bet in No Limit play.
- Failing to raise unopened pots preflop.
Too often I will see a player limp a hand such as KJo or A7o in late position in an unopened pot. This is a good way to get a good second-best hand, and get no read against the blinds, who could have anything!
My recommendations: Q7+ or J10 on the button, Q9+ in the cutoff, K9+ in the hijack seat, A8+ in the next seat, and A10+ in the next seat, all for a raise. Be fast, but be first.
- Calling/limping too much.
In no limit holdem, the proper play is most often raise or fold. Calling fails to give you the extra read you need, and the extra information you get from raising. The example I provide below is preflop, but this occurs after the flop as well.
example:
AQ in utg+2, 9 handed. This is a hand that should be played, but many don't wish to play it for a raise, due to the fact that there are several players left to act, and they don't want to face a better hand out of position.
Let's say you limp, and the button raises: The button could have KJ+, any ace, or any pair.
Let's say you raise and are reraised by the button: The button likely has 10-10+ or AQ+.
Let's say you raise and are called by the button: The button likely has 22-99 or KJ-AJ.
What you accomplished by raising is getting information. Essentially by raising, and watching their action, you have defined their hand, giving you a better read. It's hard enough to play this hand out of position WITHOUT having to guess your opponents holding. If you are limping more than 2x/SNG, you are liekly limping too much.
- Failing to play huge draws with extreme aggression.
One of the most common myths in poker is that pushing all in on the flop with a flush draw is a horrid play. The truth is, that it isn't, and it's merely a just a bad play. In the event that you have more than a flush draw, say a flush draw with an additional pair, openended straight draw, or a gutshot with overcards, it's time to make a huge play at the pot.
I see too many players checking these hands, hoping for a free turn card, with players left to to act.
The important concept here is that your draw becomes weak after the turn if you miss, and even a 60% draw turns to 30%. Then it's too easy for someone to bet you out of the pot, and no matter what the river card is, you cannot reap the benefits without paying too much. With these hands you want to see either a turn AND river, or just the flop, winning the pot right there, therefore it is often best to just shove!
What shoving does is guarantee that you get to see both the turn and the river, and it maximizes the chances your opponent will fold (fold equity), thus adding value to your draw.
- Failing to call underdog hands with proper pot odds.
A fold I often see in this level is from the big blind, where more than 1/3 of your stack is invested, and the hand held is weak.
Let me introduce the 30% rule:
If you are heads-up in a pot, and the amount it costs to call is less than 30% of what the total pot will be, it is almost always correct to call, regardless what you are holding.
- Failing to play to win, and just trying to make the money.
Most of my students coming into my classes have the idea that survival is the most important concept in a SNG, and they should never jeopardize their "tournament life", unless they are sure they are ahead! While surviving increases your ITM%, your ROI is most affected by the number of wins you attain!
In the lowest levels the majority of your opponents are thinking like that, and you should abuse them liberally!
Let me give you an example:
Q: You are in the small blind, holding two blank cards. You literally CANNOT win a showdown. Blinds are 100-200, and it's folded to you. When is it correct to raise to 600?
A: When your opponent is so tight he will fold 75%+ of the time.
Let's say your opponent folds everytime unless he has a pair, a good ace, or KQ-KJ...say 80% of the time.
In five trials, you will win 200 four times, and lose your raise once, for a total profit of 200, holding 00!
Recognize which opponents are tight, and situations where your opponents will often play tight, such as survival situations. These situations come up most often later in a SNG, and are the key to winning!
- Expecting opponents to play well.
Your opponents in a $5-10 SNG are a mix of recreational players with little clue, bad players, weak-tight players, and the occasional decent player. Your opponents will be making mistakes. It is your job to exploit these, or you will fall into the looooooooooooong list of people "who can't seem to beat donkeys".
Watch for mistakes your opponents are making, and counter appropriately. If they call too much, bet more when you have it, and bluff less. If they fold too much, bet more often, etc. They are screwing up left and right, DO NOT FORGET to adjust to this, or you will be left in the dust whining about your bad beat.
- Playing too tight early.
While playing tight early is a viable strategy in a higher limit SNG, it is simply a mistake in the lowest limit SNGs, where there are usually a few players just dying to lose their money early. Get first crack at these players' money. Play a wide range of hands in late position, hoping to hit a monster. You have huge implied odds when the blinds are small, and opponents who are all too willing to call off their stack with top pair! Play hands in position, cheap, hit a monster, and bet HARD hoping for a call. You'll get it more often than not.
For more information on low-limit SNG lessons, email me at goodtime46@aol.com, or visit my site at spaces.msn.com/jennypoker. Discounts will me made available to those who sign up for a site through a link at pocketfives.com.
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I don't think Jenni is advocating calling raises here necessarily but either limping or perhaps raising yourself in position with these kind of hands. Personally I will not call a raise with a hand like T9s at levels 1 or 2 at this level for the following reasons:
a) You're very unlikely to get a perfect flop. Even if you hit your flush you probably won't get much out of your opponent. So you're hoping for a straight or two pair. And your hoping he hits his hand in some way so that he pays you off.
b) More likely, you get a draw. You now have a bigger pot and will have to call off a larger portion of your stack to hit it. That's why a raise is better than calling a raise as you will often get control of the pot and can c-bet it yourself or otherwise control it's size.
c) Most likely you'll get nothing at all and will just be bleeding chips at the early levels. That's why being a good post-flop player is so important - you'll need to take down some of those pots when you miss if you play in this way.
d) It's early so you won't have great reads on your opponents.
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I do advocate limping small pairs in early/mid position early in a SNG.
My point in that part of the piece is that people tend to limp too much, and it's causing problems for them.
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No worries, sooooted, I don't feel you are "starting" anything other than a good poker discussion, which given the recent bill that passed, is something we need! So you'll get nothing but kudos from me! Your counterpoints give the forum reader a good counterpoint that makes sense.
As far as AQ in ep goes, it's not a great limping hand because it fails to give you the read you need on other callers. Like I bring up in my example, by offering your opponent the chance to reraise, you clearly know you are behind if this happens, whereas if you limp, and are raised, you aren't sure whether you are ahead or behind, and will fold while ahead, or risk playing the big pot you fear. Reraised, you simply fold and move on, and certainly not for a big pot.
I agree with limping medium pocket pairs in ep, when the blinds are small.
As far as the 30 SNG sample goes, trust me when I tell you that would be all you would need to clearly see those hands are +EV. Here's why:
The $50 SNG player says to themselves..."gee, she's raising a lot, I have A10, I'll RERAISE!"
The $5 SNG player says to themselves..."gee, she's raising a lot, I have A10, I'll CALL!"
The difference is that you have position against the $5 player here, and your Q7o is a 70% favorite after the flop against A10o...because that's about how often the A10 will miss the flop, and fold to a c-bet of about 2/3 the pot. So while for higher buyins, my range is downright unreasonable...for $5-10 level, it's not only reasonable, it's appropriate!
If you are using that range and are getting reraised a lot, or you suspect you are being raised with crap, simply tighten your range... if they are folding too much, lower your button range to 00+ (any two cards), but if they are calling, your range is okay, and you'll c-bet them out of the pot much like supermoves describes in his heads-up post!
I am definately willing to accept advice from others and try it out... no matter how successful I have become, I never stop learning. Add that to my list of things some people screw up, thanks to sooooted...They fail to stop learning. I have had friends, books, videos, mentors, a whole lot of trial and error, and the fine folks at p5s, such as yourself, help me along the way! Take sooooted's advice, folks and never stop learning or taking advice!
Thank you for the fine discussion added to this post... you have helped to make the thread more fun to read, and even more educational.
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Great question!
I normally advocate calling with whatever you perceive to be the top half of the raisers range, in most cases. In this specific case, ICM demands (someone will have to confirm this, as I don't have the tools in front of me) that you call in the top quarter of your opponents suspected range only.
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Thanks iis and great questions!
Calling a 3x bb raise, when stacks are deep, is a viable strategy only in a multiway pot, say with suited connectors, or a small pair. You have the implied odds to hit hard against players who play top pair too hard. It's just too easy to double (and sometimes triple!) if you hit.
The downfall of sitting back in these, is that the players who are most likely to "donk" off their chips early, are less likely to "donk" them off to you if you aren't in the hand.
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This post elaborated a lot the problems I had with your previous posts and I now think I understand your overall objective.
It's certainly not on par with the "standard" way to play low limits, but it is interesting and worth trying.
Keep in mind though everyone, this is strictly a low limit thing like she said. Also, I would tighten up considerably if a good player is on your left. If you open raise with her given range and a good player is on your left, he will start coming over the top of you with a HUGE range.
Just use it with fish.
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I agree with limping early in the regular sngs. For example, I like limping in with suited connectors, and a-x/k-x suited for the flush/two pair combo. I will do this in early position and fold to resistance. If i'm in late position and in an unopened pot, I pop it up 3xbb. If we have a few limbers in front of us, I'll just limp as well.
I also like to bet bigger in the 1st 2/3 rounds of blinds with premium hands to ensure the garbage hands get out of the pot. That way we can put our opponents on a range (generally suited connectors, 88+, and jt+). I think this is important at the 10/20 blinds because most people see a 3xbb raise as only 60 chips. They have 1500 and are like what's 60 chips going to do? I will raise ~4-5.5xbb in early position with premium hands.
Finally, I start playing solid poker around 50/100. I go with the usual 3xbb bet. I do not limp in any pot at these levels. There's nothing worse than losing an unraised pot. I generally do not make continuation bets on paired boards or low boards unless I have seen them fold before. I will make a delayed bet though if they check on the flop. I will make a cbet on any board with an a/k. My reason for this is if I cbet and they call, I can put them on that card and get out of the hand. Most of the time they're going to fold to a cbet on a a-x-x board unless they have an ace. This way I can get out of the hand.
Finally, if you’re a regular trny player, these tactics are not optimal in the turbos. In fact, in turbos, I will fold almost every non-premium hand until around 50/100. I don’t think it’s worth the risk to double up early in the turbos. IMO turbos are a waiting game, then push at the end.
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Again, sooooted brings up a good point, and although I stated that this is for low-limit SNG play only, it CANNOT be stressed enough that these moves that were up for debate were designed for play against the typical low-limit player.
Sooooted is exactly right when he brings up that if there is a good player on your left, you should tighten. This will allow the good player to think you are still raising crap later on, and the next time he tries to abuse you, you just crush him with your premium hand.
If you try these specific tactics against better players at bigger buyins, you might get hurt.
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Good stuff relatively! I agree with most of your points/ideas except these:
- Betting larger with premium hands preflop doesn't make a lot of sense at the later levels. Your premium will be well-disguised with all the raising you are doing.
- C-bet nearly 100% of the time against one or two callers.
- These tactics are also very applicable to turbos. If anything, even more so. People will be less likely to pick up on your tendencies.
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I think putting the UTG raiser on the given range is unrealistic as he's more on any two cards. Either way, I fold here. I want to be the first one in the pot, but to answer your question, I would call with TT+,ATs+, and KQs+.
Also, If you played to win, you should have been keeping up with the blind structure. To win this tournament, you're going to need nothing short of a miracle. I think the proper move is to try to make the money from this chip stack.
IMO, the best play is to fold because we still have 10bb and are looking for the short stack to bubble. The short stack is going to have to make a move soon and I'd like to see the large stacks take him out. In our current situation, I wouldn't be unhappy with a 3rd place cash.
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I go back to 3xbb in the later stages. In the early stages, you have to raise your larger hands to get everyone out. I will never cbet with 2 people in a pot unless I am last to act. Finally, I think if you're playing a lot of pots early, you're wasting chips when they could be better used at the higher blinds.
edit: the last sentence is referring to the turbos.
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Jen,
It's nice to be reading a post that is about playing poker for a change.
Nice article. I recently had a lesson with Jen and found it to be very beneficial (working with Jen was a great experience - I almost don't want to say that because I'm sure she'll just increase her fees again lol - I would highly recommend it to anyone who plays low level SNG's).
So far I was a winning player in SNG's ($5 level around 25% ROI - albeit on a small sample size of around 250). That being said I would have been characterized as weak tight. Generally if I got some hands I was going to cash and if I was in a pot I generally was the favourite. What Jen's approach did for me was loosen up my game. It seemed over the top to me in some cases i.e. raising q9 in the cutoff seemed kamikaze. However, I tried it out and it works. And if it doesn't work pre-flop then a c-bet on the flop more than often takes it down. I'm sure it won't in the $50+SNG's but I'm not playing those.
It is good to see people expressing different viewpoints. There is no single way to play SNG's or poker in general for that matter. I don't strictly follow the "SNG gospel according to Jennifear". I am trying to integrate her thoughts into my existing style while continuing to read and learn about the game through other articles.
Threads like these are the reason that I log onto P5's every day.
Thanks.
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Just when i thought there could be nothing more to say about playing at cheap sitngo's they come up with something. What ever happened to... just play tight, they all suck? You can basically sit out and cash. Anyway i've said it before i'll say it again. WRITE A BOOK.. actually just consolidate all the posts you've made on here and print it. It really is good stuff, maybe time to move up from small stakes?
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Thanks Topher for the nice comments! :)
Topher brings up a good point in that you have to be comfy with the style you play, or your game will suffer. The fact that Topher has decided to play SNGs using his style combined with mine where comfortable is likely to be more profitable for him than solely trying my style.
Another good point here--pocketfives is the best place for good poker discussion. A special thanks to the fine people who run this site for making the effort to keep good poker discussion at the forefront, even during these troubled times!
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Well, I have... kinda.
These days I'm doing a lot more teaching than playing, but when I do play it is usually at the $20-30 level, or the $16 turbo 18 mans on stars.
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