Poker Discussion
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CarbonPoker · Full Tilt · Cake Poker · PokerStars · Ultimate Bet · Players Only · Bodog
I received word while at lunch that the AP release is due out very shortly. In a nutshell they still have much of the investigation to complete, and that will take time. So far they have definitive proof as to who the culprit was, how he did it, and the fact that he did in fact cash out a significant amount. Further, I am being told that he had more accounts than even we had realized, and they are doing extensive investigations because some of these accounts were attempted to be deleted by him.
This person was the second in charge and has been fired from AP, and his one superior Scott Tom is going to be removed from running AP for a significant period of time. For legal reasons the AP release is not going to specifically name this person, and I will elaborate on that fact and why it makes perfect sense. Most of us know this persons name already as it has already been widely reported.
This person was Scott Tom's best friend and actually lived at Scott Tom's house in Costa Rica. Scott Tom has been living in Panama for quite some time, and the day to day operations of AP were left to the care of his best friend and second in charge at AP. Unfortunately since the person in command of AP was also the thief he obviously issued numerous steadfast denials of any wrong doing. Basically he was investigating himself.
Since this person was a high ranking official he had access to very sensitive information, not only regarding the operations of the company, but also very sensitive information regarding player accounts, balances, names, deposits, withdrawals etc. Because of the Internet Gaming Act their is still a wide gray area as to what is sensitive and what is not. As such the attorneys for both AP and the KGC have the same opinion that is best not to release his name publicly for the simple fact that they do not want more harm being done to the industry as a result of this person possibly trying to disclose this information publicly as a retaliation for him being fired from AP.
Further, even though Scott Tom was not involved in the actual theft, he is responsible for the actions of his friend and second in charge of the company, which is why he is being removed for a significant time frame while the entire process of restoring trust in AP takes place.
I am being told that all monies players were cheated out of will be repaid. I also have made strong overtures and recommendations that in any case involving a player being cheated AP should err on the side of caution and compensate the player if their is any doubt that he was affected.
As I stated before, they already have found several accounts that even we had not known about, and evidence of some accounts that the second in charge tried to delete. All of this investigation is going to take time, but it appears that simply based on this disclosure that they are definitively going to make a concerted effort to make things right.
Chris.
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Does this best friend really exist? Suppose he does, "How many of our best friends would ever do something of this magnitude to us?" How does Scott Tom not know that his best friend has it in his character to do something like this? Unless perhaps Mr. Tom comes from the same mindset and knew what was going on all along. I just think that the whole "best friend" defense is a way out for Scott and a way for him to dodge the blame and attempt to salvage his reputation. I bet the "best friend" ends up with a large bank acct., not the money stolen, for taking the blame here.
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Nole91
(United States)
646
Posts.
Joined
02-28-2006.
10-21-2007 5:53 PM
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Let's face it- if Scott Tom owns a majority of the company (please see through the online gaming corporate veil showing Chief Nockahoma as owner), he's not going anywhere regardless of whether or not he was involved. Not sure I believe AP's latest version- not sure that I don't.
The only punishment severe enough is for players to stay away from Absolute like it's the plague. Most of us at some point have defended online poker game integrity by saying that sites had every incentive to operate a fair game. If you choose to return, you are invalidating that argument and open yourself to be cheated by someone in the future.
I hope the 1 year look back on this story reads "How one or more AP execs killed their company and how other sites have prevented it from happening to them".
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remember what AP told us, scott tom doesn't work there, and hasn't for a year
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Dyzalot,
I am not spinning anything at all. I think if you review my posts you will see that I have completely been outspoken and vocal about not accepting the B.S. that had been spewing from AP. The latest response is not from the person who was making the previous releases. It admits guilt and is a promise to clean things up.
Let me repeat I do not see myself playing at AP. I just can't digest supporting them after all of this, but that is a personal decision.
The ONLY reason for my post is to make it clear that we have two choices. We can say fuck AP forever and let them die, or we can give them the opportunity to actually clean it up if we believe their last release.
Personally, I don't care. I care for those involved from this community, I care for those who have ties to AP thru UB, and I care for those who have money tied up there. I don't have a nickel at AP and I am not going to play there in the future, so my interest is that I think online poker would be better if we actually had them clean it up and divulge the extent of the cheating.
I made a rather pointed phone call a little while ago whereby I implored them to hire Nat (N82) to be a part of the investigation. AP simply can't stand any further oversights such as missing reimbursing a player or not finding an account that had cheated. Having Nat involved will give the community a sense of trust where there is most certainly none present at the moment.
The reason I even posted to begin with is to let the community know that the situation was now being addressed from a different level. Previously we had to endure the press releases from the very person who was stealing from us... that isn't the case now.
LET ME MAKE A POINT HERE. They are just now really getting into the investigation. Previously the "investigation" was being spearheaded by the thief, so obviously nothing was being done. It may very well turn out that there is such a level of deceit and theft that we will never be able to forgive them. Having Nat inform us everything that transpired will make us all feel like we were given full disclosure.
I have a belief that when the dust settles we may very well find an incredible amount of cheating/theft was taking place. So much so that the only true way to make it right is to clean house completely. I don't know how feasible or practical this idea is, but I can't foresee any other reasonable way for AP to stay viable if in fact the cheating was more widespread than we are currently aware.
You have to remember the main core of the management at AP were all fraternity buddies. As such we don't yet know how intricate the level of deception was or how great the magnitude of people involved.
I am not asking anyone to take anything AP says at face value, as a matter of fact I don't take it at face value so I encourage you to also not swallow everything carte blanche. What I will state is that as long as we actively think that AP can still be saved we should keep an open line of communication and try to have someone from the community on the inside.
A wise man once said keep your friends close but keep your enemies closer. Right now we need to keep AP close so we can get to the truth, and we have to understand that the long process of cleaning this whole mess up is just beginning. A lot of the information AP had about this cheating came directly from the 2+2 and P5 threads. I am quite sure that they still have much that they haven't yet uncovered and we need to be part of that discovery process. When they divulged to me that they had found several accounts that had cheated that even we didn't know about I took that at face value, a step in the right direction...
We still have a much farther way to go. Hiring Nat to be our investigation pointman will go a great positive next step.
Chris.
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I have kept up to date with this issue from the start. I have no reason to doubt that Chris has the facts figured out.
I believe there are a few things that make it very difficult for AP to ever publicly explain a lot of what is happening even if they are 100% trying to do the right thing. These shell companies hiding ownership and involvement as well as statements distancing US citizens involvement are likely more to do with protecting all of the major US players in the industry as it is to protect the one or two bad apples in this case. The ties to a native reserve in Canada might be for some degree of tax sheltering as others state but more likely for protection from any North American anti-gambling laws using native treaties as their basis.
Many of their blatant misrepresentations in press releases can be explained taking this in consideration in combination with the pretense that the guilty party was still in charge of the initial investigations and press releases. I can see the rest of the management being even more hardened to the false claims of cheating then we are in the bad beat forums and not questioning the guy leading the original investigation. They have been accused of rigging their games so many times that it makes sense that they just let the guy in charge handle it. I can forgive them for not suspecting foul play at first.
To me it's a given that they can't disclose who is working on AP's behalf (steering the ship) nor can they disclose their financial backers, especially since it seems clear they are mostly US citizens. They can and hopefully will disclose more detail on the security breach so that players can rationally conclude if they have completely plugged the hole. Was it a development tool in conjunction with advanced Server access privileges that was used? A separately engineered client that would work without also having back office system access? Did whatever they used create logs that can be looked at to help figure out what additional games were violated? I have a lot of unanswered questions but I have not given up hope that they will be answered after the investigation/audit concludes.
They will hopefully do as their press release claims and compensate those who lost funds regardless if they believe it will influence people like Chris to return to their site. I'm also sure they have lots of employees that don't deserve to lose their livelihood and are as sickened by this as we are. I think we could trust them to let the community know if the 'bad apples' are still involved after this is over. A public hanging is not necessary IMO.
I might play there again if they can convince me it's safe to do so. It will certaily take more then offering a juicy deposit bonus to get me to reinstall their software.
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Nole91
(United States)
646
Posts.
Joined
02-28-2006.
10-21-2007 6:08 PM
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In reply to
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remember what AP told us, scott tom doesn't work there, and hasn't for a year
More detail about that exists in other forums- they've obviously come off that stance. If your point is that they've lied or changed their story several times, then you sir are correct.
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That statement was issued when the thief was still in charge.
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8ROM
(United Kingdom)
999
Posts.
Joined
01-19-2006.
10-21-2007 7:19 PM
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In reply to
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how is that site even still operating after all this? it is discovered that the thieves were actually insiders and its still not shut down? wtf? you would need a brain bypass to play on there after this. get that site shut down, its a fucking disgrace.
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The people who once said, "Hey, people will set up poker sites from Central American countries and then steal from you, because there's a glitch in the software and they can do it" were utterly ridiculed and compared to the guy with the sign saying the sky was falling.
Then it happened. The people owning/running a poker site stole from the people playing on it.
All I'm saying is, Absolute Poker is dead. There is no more Absolute Poker.
The questions for AP should now center around when and how they are going to cease operations and liquidate their assets.
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I couldn't agree more, but if ever they do close AP, they'll just change up the software and rename it. They'll be stealing again in no time.
Does anyone know who really owns Pokerstars?
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"Since this person was a high ranking official he had access to very sensitive information, not only regarding the operations of the company, but also very sensitive information regarding player accounts, balances, names, deposits, withdrawals etc. Because of the Internet Gaming Act their is still a wide gray area as to what is sensitive and what is not. As such the attorneys for both AP and the KGC have the same opinion that is best not to release his name publicly for the simple fact that they do not want more harm being done to the industry as a result of this person possibly trying to disclose this information publicly as a retaliation for him being fired from AP."
^^Im calling bs on this statement. AP's bs, not yours brsavage. Im sure youre only relaying what has been told to you. This sounds more like AP damage control for themselves rather than AP trying to protect the industry from further harm. Just a guess, but I believe this person has threatened to expose everyone involved if his name appears rather than threatening to disclose "sensitive info regarding accounts, names, balances, etc." Maybe Im missing something here (likely) but if his identity is so blatantly obvious to everyone with inside knowledge, why dont these people in the know and not affiliated with AP expose him to the public so the entire story will come out? I have been less affected by this than many people but I do have a fairly significant amount of money at AP that has been denied for transfer to UB several times since this all came about.
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ranchgirl -
enough of the negativity already. Every post you make has something to do with every form of poker being rigged. You come on here and make statements and accuse sites, people, etc. without any cold hard facts. The difference between you and Nat, Waco, and Chris is that they had FACTS to back up their claims.
This is a POKER forum. I mean, you even claim that Jenn Tilly's win on the WPT was tainted in some way. If you fell like the cards are stacked against you, then why do you play?
If I was a miserable as you seem to be while playing, I would give it up. Life is way too short to be that miserable.
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And you are???
Look, you post your opinion, and I'll post mine. AP was caught stealing. They should be shut down in my opinion.
I feel Pokerstars is more honest than the rest, but I would like to know who owns them.
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My opinion is that posting accusations without the cold, hard facts to back them up does nothing but muddy the already brown water and makes you look certifiable.
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Chris, do you have any ownership/investment relationship with UB/AP?
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