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Tuesday meeting at AP Office
Adam (Costa Rica) 11,354 Posts. Joined 12-21-2004.
10-18-2007 2:53 AM

Yesterday we had a very lengthy and candid meeting at Absolute Poker’s offices in Costa Rica and would like to give everyone an update on what came out of this meeting.   This was a meeting where we didn't hold anything back.  We presented the facts and allegations as we know them—everything that’s been posted on P5s and 2+2, as well as any information we’ve found out from other people we’ve spoken to about this.

Before we get into the particulars of this meeting, I would like to make it clear what our position is on this situation and what we hope to get out of this.  As one of the largest and most trusted poker communities on the Internet, we feel a responsibility to online poker players all over the world to set the record straight.  The greatest thing that can come out of this for us is being able to make a difference in finding the truth.

I'm going to try and summarize the main points that were made by AP at this meeting.  Everything between the dashed lines is strictly what they conveyed to us, not our opinions or interpretations.  We are simply letting everyone know what AP is currently saying about the situation.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1)  They have re-opened their investigation into the initial situation, the issue of whether or not hole cards were visible to Potripper (as well as graycat and doubledrag) or any other account that could have relayed them that information.  They are insistent that it is not possible for any account that has this ability and no way for anyone to receive other players' hole cards during a hand.  They have brought Gaming Associates, a well-known third party auditor, into the equation.

2)  They have also opened a separate investigation into the information that's come forth regarding IP addresses and the identity of those who were viewing these tables and/or playing on the accused accounts.  They weren't able to give us much information about that investigation because it is fairly new and not yet conclusive, but they are planning to make a new statement as soon as they can get all the information together.  They're hoping this is within the next few days, and they have several people working on this matter.

3)  At least part of these investigations will be conducted by representatives of the online poker community, possibly including representatives of PocketFives.com, 2+2, and/or Bluff Magazine.

4)  They sounded very confident that information will eventually come out exonerating them of all allegations.  They believe they can prove that it's not possible to do what people are alleging, as well as that it was never possible in their system.  They believe the third party audit will confirm that as well.

5)  They weren't able to talk about account 363 at all.  Their stated reason for this was that they haven't finished investigating the account.

6)  They want people to know that despite what's currently going on, they are planning for the future with this site; they're not throwing in the towel.  They stated several times that they've got a huge amount of liquidity and will have no problem paying out any cashouts, so no one should worry about getting their money.

7)  Most importantly, they want everyone to keep an open mind about this.  They're trying hard to make this situation right, and they're hoping people will give them another chance to find all the relevant information, come to conclusions based on that information, and bring it out to the public.  While they were adamant that there's no way anyone can see others' hole cards prior to showdown, they also said that if somehow it was found out that they're wrong about this and that players were in fact cheated, they will immediately begin figuring out how to pay that money to all those affected by the breach.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Keep an eye out for more information from AP.  I don't know exactly what they'll come out with---I'm really hoping it's meaningful and helps us move along towards a full understanding of exactly what has happened.  We're all exhausted, and this hasn't been fun at all for any of us, but until things clear up, we're going to stay heavily involved.

 
 
 

Pupkin (United States) 1,820 Posts. Joined 12-01-2005.
10-18-2007 4:01 AM - In reply to

I don't care in any way what AP does from this point forward -- they've had far too long to admit the proven fact that cheating occurred to the worst degree, everyone's biggest fear basically of people actually seeing our hole cards.  They need to be shut down.  People need to stop playing there.  Several top players and members of this community are still playing big tournaments on AP and that's helping to greatly damage online poker as a whole.  They're shooting themselves in the foot and the rest of us in the process.

Adam (Costa Rica) 11,354 Posts. Joined 12-21-2004.
10-18-2007 4:04 AM - In reply to

You may want to check out the podcast that just went up, featuring adanthar and Michael Josem.  You may find what you're looking for there, in terms of that sort of content.

unfknbelievable (United States) 1,483 Posts. Joined 12-11-2006.
10-18-2007 4:04 AM - In reply to

this will never be solved for so many reasons. one reason is that if it ever gets into mainstream media the casual/hobby player is never going to know what the hell all this evidence means. if it gets to the media the hobby player will still player there. also online sites like p5s and 2+2 probably only represent 5% of there customer base. they will eventually say it is all impossible that anything occurred and then thats it. its real sad

ActionJeff (United States) 3,938 Posts. Joined 10-05-2005.
10-18-2007 4:08 AM - In reply to

FOR THOSE WHO ARE NOT UP TO DATE ON 2P2 THREAD:

THERE IS SUBSTANTIAL EVIDENCE INDICATING THAT MULTIPLE MEMBERS OF HIGH UP AP SUPPORT ARE INVOLVED, AND AP INSIDERS HAVE BEEN LEAKING TONS OF INFO TO 2P2 PEOPLE

-Jeff

Adam (Costa Rica) 11,354 Posts. Joined 12-21-2004.
10-18-2007 4:12 AM - In reply to

I can't keep posting about this or my head's going to hit my keyboard.  I wish we'd been able to uncover some groundbreaking information at this meeting, but we really weren't.  I must have told them at least 10 times that the main thing I was interested in was finding out the identities of the players who were on those accounts (acct 363, potripper, doubledrag, payup, and graycat).  They just would not talk about any of that stuff.  It's not that we weren't pressing them repeatedly for this information; it's simply that they wouldn't give it to us.

I'm not going to comment on things here like whether or not I felt insulted, because I don't think it does anyone any good.  My personal emotions aren't going to help anyone get this case solved.  We're going to find out whatever we can from them -- if that's not much, we haven't lost anything but our time.

acecatcher26 (United States) 4,162 Posts. Joined 01-16-2006.
10-18-2007 4:21 AM - In reply to

Agreed,  I could care less what the "3rd party" investigators find out.  They have been caught, and this would be much easier on them if they would just say ok it happend, we were hacked ect.  Which I really dont think they were. I mean I expected them to lie, but dont insult the poker players by saying that theres no way it could happen.  Anyone who knows anything about poker would know u cant win playing that way, unless u can see the hole cards. 


Edit:  ActionJeff,  link?

shankingyou (United States) 370 Posts. Joined 07-04-2006.
10-18-2007 4:26 AM - In reply to

http://www.umsae.net/alumni/year/alumni9599.htm

Check that out. Scot Philip Jon Mike Bill Tom is listed whatever his real name is. This list from 1999 alums prob contains a good portion of those responsible.

ucanbluffme (United Kingdom) 8 Posts. Joined 11-14-2006.
10-18-2007 4:32 AM - In reply to

I would like to see anyone here go over to Costa Rica and sit in on a meeting with AP "execs". Let them give you their version - then what ? Are you going to seriously tell me that you would sit there and tell them that they are lying ? I personally think even going to this meeting showed a lot of class and big b@lls (sorry to any underages for the profanity). Give the guys a break (Adam and p5's), they have got what no one (well hardly anyone) else has, whats that ? A staring point, a face to put to names. These guys (p5's) have just went along and acted as a intermediate for all of the poker community. Maybe the guy's do/did feel insulted. As Adam clearly stated the writing below the lines in no way reflects what he or any of the p5's reps feelings on the matter. It is supposed to be basically an update on AP's official response. Personally I cant see what else Anyone could have done different - especially considering the location of AP's offices and the laws of that particular land. You lot arent going to see the CIA/FBI or any others raiding these guys office - forget that stuff and concentrate on what we can do rather than what we Want to do.

PS THANKYOU ADAM and p5's team for at least "trying" to get a good grip on this.

mesaplayeraz (United States) 2,239 Posts. Joined 09-08-2006.
10-18-2007 4:56 AM - In reply to

Adam,

I want to applaud you and whoever else went to that meeting at AP.  You asked questions that needed to be asked.

One of you, I can't remember if it was you, Cal or Lenny posted a few days ago that AP was going to give you full access of their office and systems.  I don't think they did give you full access.

When you repeatedly asked them about Potripper, 363 and the others, they could have easily taken you to their system, brought up each player and what ISP they used to play in the tournament.

I honestly feel AP jerked you around by saying their investigation into 363 and the others isnt complete.

I also think AP could have issued a press release through P5 when all of this crap started or better yet, someone high up at AP actually create an account here in P5 and explain to us what they are doing.

AP should have been better prepared to answer your questions if they agreed to this meeting and the fact they didnt answer ALL of your questions just reinforces my belief that they are still covering up this incident.

Please keep us posted as I do appreciate the updates you have been providing us!

Mesa

jesterwords (United States) 14,211 Posts. Joined 01-07-2006.
10-18-2007 5:26 AM - In reply to

Mesa - due to leagal reasons I'm sure that AP could not just have opened up their system and started pointing out information about players to the P5crew.  As much as we would like that to happen.

Adam - Was the question asked about what internal levels of security/accounts are permitted on thier API or GUI?

I'm really interested in how they say that NO user has the capability to view the hole cards of all players at a table.  After working in IT for almost 10 years now, every server/client application I've run into has a root account with full access to all information on users.

Perhaps we are missing something here, or assuming something that may not be entirely correct.  We are assuming that the SU (superuser) was using the game client to view the hole cards.  Perhaps this user was actually in their live database and was using a differing method of viewing the cards.

I'm just thinking out loud here, because it is possible that NO client can view other players hole cards.  So, perhaps AP is not lying when they say that no CLIENT can see hole cards.  But, maybe they were not truthful as to the capability of system root to view the cards through means other than a poker client gui.

mathclub (New Zealand) 6,585 Posts. Joined 01-17-2007.
10-18-2007 5:39 AM - In reply to

P5's - Adam and the team, you guys are doing a great job and we all appreciate it.  That must have been a very tense meeting, and thank you very much for putting our points across to them.

AP - you guys are a lying bunch of shits and you should all rot in hell.  you won't be getting my money any time soon.

kirklaja (United States) 142 Posts. Joined 06-18-2005.
10-18-2007 5:53 AM - In reply to

false. bonuswhores ftw.

pokerprolific (United Kingdom) 1,766 Posts. Joined 07-03-2007.
10-18-2007 7:22 AM - In reply to

i have to say that the most disgusting thing about this situation is that it looks like absolute poker just does not care. the sad truth is that ppl will continue to play there. absolute poker knows this (just look at that 1k tourney thing). henceforth they will just brush it off as they have been doing, not realising how bad that is. they know that they will continue to generate rake and as far as they are concerned, this incident is just another case of online poker is "rigged". sometimes the bad guys win....

boudicia (Canada) 2 Posts. Joined 10-14-2007.
10-18-2007 7:30 AM - In reply to

If AP is referring to versions of the client available for download it is likely true the software doesn't have that capability.  Versions used in development are a different matter.  I find it interesting that so far AP is not denying the existence of account 363,  What version of the software would that account be using I wonder.  I have been thinking that the excel file might have been generated out of carelessness.  Perhaps the staff member ran a query on the database that included information that shouldn't have been and then didn't go to the trouble of creating a formatted report but just exported the data to an excel file and emailed it without opening it to see if the export performed properly which might account for it appearing scrambled.  Interesting also that AP hasn't said much about that file.  It's not surprising AP is not acknowledging any wrongdoing or flaws in their system.  Few businesses ever do unless forced to.

Mr_BigQueso (United States) 5,715 Posts. Joined 03-23-2007.
10-18-2007 7:30 AM - In reply to

interesting
 
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