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Tuesday meeting at AP Office
Adam (Costa Rica) 11,354 Posts. Joined 12-21-2004.
10-18-2007 2:53 AM

Yesterday we had a very lengthy and candid meeting at Absolute Poker’s offices in Costa Rica and would like to give everyone an update on what came out of this meeting.   This was a meeting where we didn't hold anything back.  We presented the facts and allegations as we know them—everything that’s been posted on P5s and 2+2, as well as any information we’ve found out from other people we’ve spoken to about this.

Before we get into the particulars of this meeting, I would like to make it clear what our position is on this situation and what we hope to get out of this.  As one of the largest and most trusted poker communities on the Internet, we feel a responsibility to online poker players all over the world to set the record straight.  The greatest thing that can come out of this for us is being able to make a difference in finding the truth.

I'm going to try and summarize the main points that were made by AP at this meeting.  Everything between the dashed lines is strictly what they conveyed to us, not our opinions or interpretations.  We are simply letting everyone know what AP is currently saying about the situation.

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1)  They have re-opened their investigation into the initial situation, the issue of whether or not hole cards were visible to Potripper (as well as graycat and doubledrag) or any other account that could have relayed them that information.  They are insistent that it is not possible for any account that has this ability and no way for anyone to receive other players' hole cards during a hand.  They have brought Gaming Associates, a well-known third party auditor, into the equation.

2)  They have also opened a separate investigation into the information that's come forth regarding IP addresses and the identity of those who were viewing these tables and/or playing on the accused accounts.  They weren't able to give us much information about that investigation because it is fairly new and not yet conclusive, but they are planning to make a new statement as soon as they can get all the information together.  They're hoping this is within the next few days, and they have several people working on this matter.

3)  At least part of these investigations will be conducted by representatives of the online poker community, possibly including representatives of PocketFives.com, 2+2, and/or Bluff Magazine.

4)  They sounded very confident that information will eventually come out exonerating them of all allegations.  They believe they can prove that it's not possible to do what people are alleging, as well as that it was never possible in their system.  They believe the third party audit will confirm that as well.

5)  They weren't able to talk about account 363 at all.  Their stated reason for this was that they haven't finished investigating the account.

6)  They want people to know that despite what's currently going on, they are planning for the future with this site; they're not throwing in the towel.  They stated several times that they've got a huge amount of liquidity and will have no problem paying out any cashouts, so no one should worry about getting their money.

7)  Most importantly, they want everyone to keep an open mind about this.  They're trying hard to make this situation right, and they're hoping people will give them another chance to find all the relevant information, come to conclusions based on that information, and bring it out to the public.  While they were adamant that there's no way anyone can see others' hole cards prior to showdown, they also said that if somehow it was found out that they're wrong about this and that players were in fact cheated, they will immediately begin figuring out how to pay that money to all those affected by the breach.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Keep an eye out for more information from AP.  I don't know exactly what they'll come out with---I'm really hoping it's meaningful and helps us move along towards a full understanding of exactly what has happened.  We're all exhausted, and this hasn't been fun at all for any of us, but until things clear up, we're going to stay heavily involved.

 
 
 

ActionJeff (United States) 3,938 Posts. Joined 10-05-2005.
10-18-2007 8:15 AM - In reply to

pokerprolific,I don't think this is true. It seems that Absolute currently doesn't care and isn't taking this incredibly seriously, although I am sure they are in crisis mode.Rest assured that there is evidence more conclusive than a hand history out there. This started inside Absolute and plenty of people knew about it and now that the facts are emerging, they aren't keeping quiet. The fact of the matter is that Absolute going down in flames would be an enormous blow to online poker and have very negative, far reaching consequences. The people with the evidence don't want that to happen, the people with jobs at Absolute don't want that to happen, and as a poker player, as much as I hate Absolute, I don't want that to happen. Absolute poker needs to know this. Absolute poker needs to know that it is in their best interests to pay the players back and publically confess to everything that happened, come totally clean, all truth. Guilty parties must be publically revealed and the record set straight. I think that they will realize this soon enough, and I think the next couple days will be interesting.-Jeff

brsavage (United States) 2,871 Posts. Joined 01-25-2005.
10-18-2007 8:35 AM - In reply to

What amazes me the most about this thread is that Action Jeff is awake like a normal person... Aren't you supposed to make a million bucks a night then sleep til about 3 p.m.?


 On a serious note... I trust Adam implicitly. He doesn't throw softballs. Remember, he was there to gather information. If he acted like a dick to the AP people he would lose the source of contact.

 One of the more troubling points for me is that the AP scandal obviously runs much deeper than we ever believed. Remember, they stated that Potripper was just a losing player playing crazy in the 1K tournament that he beat Crazy Marco heads up. They conveniently didn't mention that Potripper was an account owned by an AP executive. This in and of itself shows they have no interest in disclosing the truth.

 IMHO they are simply buying time to find a fall guy/create some sort of story that we will be gullible enough to buy.

 Further, remember their last official statement was that Scott Tom was an EX employee of AP, and hadn't been employed there for over a year, which is another blatant lie... Unless we are expected to believe that ex executives still have current email addresses associated with the site, have current administrator accounts that they still have access to, and have been recently spamming online forums promoting the site, and of course their internet connection is linked to AP. Lovely.

 The more they lie the more the complete demise of AP becomes probable.

Chris

EddieO (United States) 1,598 Posts. Joined 05-30-2007.
10-18-2007 8:39 AM - In reply to

Did anyone from AP mention the hand history and how it clearly illustrates that potripper was able to see hole cards? 

Maybe from a technical standpoint they think their system is very safe....but what did they have to say about the obvious hand history that potripper had?  just curios...thanks for the update P5s...lookforward to more!


pdjplano (United States) 448 Posts. Joined 04-06-2006.
10-18-2007 8:39 AM - In reply to

did you happen to ask them if they would release their source code for review by people not hired by them to investigate the claims?  looking at the client and server code, assuming they gave us the actual code used during the timeframe involved, one would quickly be able to determine whether they are FOS or not.

if you have any pull with them, i would volunteer to do the code investigation for free and sign whatever NDA's AP would like to ensure that their code doesn't leak out beyond the investigation.

SillyEagle (United States) 184 Posts. Joined 05-10-2006.
10-18-2007 8:50 AM - In reply to

For all Adam knows... he may very well have been face-to-face with these very same 'high up AP support' jerks... do you think they are *SERIOUSLY* going to admit to any wrongdoing on a public level at this stage of things??  I think not.

Kudos Adam, et all... for going many extra miles and doing all the digging.  The more that gets dug up... the worse it'll be for them when this all comes out.

And it WILL come out... eventually.

Great job guys!!!  

Synappzz (Canada) 591 Posts. Joined 11-08-2006.
10-18-2007 9:11 AM - In reply to

Standard blowing of corporate BS.

It seems that there are some lower level employees that want this to come out, ie the person who *accidentally* sent the excel file complete with all incriminating evidence.  Adam (or Nat/Adanthar), is there any way to try and contact this employee, to see if he wants to do an interview?

y2ktim (Canada) 61 Posts. Joined 09-23-2005.
10-18-2007 9:40 AM - In reply to

That is so true, you have to be able to see the cardfs to validate the client software. HH are logged to a database so they're accessable 

divinecomedy (United States) 23 Posts. Joined 09-16-2007.
10-18-2007 9:57 AM - In reply to

I have no issue how pocketfives had handled the issue. I appreciate them going to great lengths to get down to the bottom of this issue.  I think the posters and bloggers of both sites pocketfives and 2+2 have done a great job to bring this to light.  on the other hand it is very disheartening that the sites are taking the stand they are.  If there is an issue with the integretity or security of their site they should act swiftly and hard on those who think are responsible.  It is too important of an issue not to address properly.  Just like with any other scandal it is the coverup that brings down the people and not the initial act.  There are always going to be people who cheat and the site will always be vulenerable but how you handle these issues is what matters.  These site are too interconnected that if AP goes down what happens to the others.  How does this affect the legalization of online poker?  Just very stupid.  

JackBileDuct (Philippines) 784 Posts. Joined 01-06-2007.
10-18-2007 9:59 AM - In reply to

I think P5 is doing what they should. Adam made it clear he was passing along what was being said. I think editorializing the content and injecting his own opinions would be a disservice to us as readers. We are intelligent enough to reach our own conclusions. I perfer he relay their statements "as is" just as he has done.

nevertilt22 (United States) 508 Posts. Joined 11-27-2005.
10-18-2007 10:01 AM - In reply to

^^thx for the link

q-_-p 149 Posts. Joined 02-04-2006.
10-18-2007 10:08 AM - In reply to

The thing that scares me the most about this whole AP scandal is that the only way it could be proven (to a reasonable degree) is by viewing that Excel file with everyones hole cards, IP's, and other information.  And how many times has a hand history with all of that information been sent out by a poker site?  Well, before this incident, I dont think a history like that has ever been sent out.  So the one time a 'complete' hand history is sent, there is undeniable evidence of blatant cheating.  

Also the cheater was so blatantly obvious that it was clear to me they never thought they would get caught, as if they had been doing this for a long time and had no worries about being exposed, even if the cheating was done so stupidly and blatantly. 

These two facts combine to make me think that there is a high probability that this is not an isolated incident.  We will never be able to self regulate this without having access to all of the information, something that we luckily had in this one case    but will never likely have again.  Those who are saying see how good we can regulate ourselves just dont seem to get that it was just pure luck that the Excel file with all of the info was sent out, it wont happen again I think.  Government regulation is needed so that independent inspectors can view these total information files on tournys at random, to spot check for this type of thing.  There would be no way for the poker community to regulate effectively without access to this 'insider' info. 

Basically, I just find it hard to believe that this is an isolated incident, the one time we get a file that could actually prove cheating, and there is a overwhelming evidence.
 


q-_-p

"...and two in times of war."

j_money24 (Lesotho) 3,932 Posts. Joined 11-18-2006.
10-18-2007 10:10 AM - In reply to

this wasn't an isolated incident. this happened a lot on AP

ranchgirl (United States) 1,032 Posts. Joined 03-02-2006.
10-18-2007 10:34 AM - In reply to

Why do you think I quit playing on UB.  I didn't have to have a tourney HH that showed all the cards.  I regularly had people call huge bets where the only way they could have called was to see what I had.  Plus, I had some damn smart ass call out my cards three hands running, preflop on UB.  I used to make money on Stars, but that was before I revealed who I was.  It seems as though the cheats have a grudge against me, or have hacked my computer again.  I wiped the harddrive clean once already.  I started to post something on p5's about favortie movie characters one day, but then deleted my text before I posted.  Some jerk on Stars starts telling me what I typed.  So they can obviously see my desktop.  Guess that's what I get for ever sharing emails with people.  I will wipe my hard drive clean again, but IF every time I connect to a poker site, it gives them the ability to see the cards or walk through my puter, then I give and will only play live. Who knows what all methods people are using to cheat live.  Marked cards, collusion?
You would think online cheats would be smarter than to be so damn blatent about it. 

SQQTED (United States) 479 Posts. Joined 05-12-2006.
10-18-2007 10:35 AM - In reply to

I agree and yes, very scary.  AP was my main site for over a year and If say what I truly feel happened to me there my post will get deleted.  I guess Pocket Fives is trying to keep everything as factual as they can and not let this thing blow up based on speculation.

Dyzalot (United States) 5,439 Posts. Joined 05-11-2005.
10-18-2007 10:39 AM - In reply to

Not true on the hand history idea.  Apparently that is there standard way to send out HH's as many people have admitted receiving ones like that.
 
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