Poker Discussion
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CarbonPoker · Full Tilt · Cake Poker · PokerStars · Ultimate Bet · Players Only · Bodog
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I have always been willing to play rebuy tourneys without much concern as to how much $ I am spending (otherwise I would just put myself in lower buy-in tourneys if I weren´t completely comfortable) so long as almost every time I finish the first hour with a healthy, above avg stack, and sometimes I am superstacked. I am curious if I am taking this a bit too far or not in the $109rebuy???? as quite often I spend around $1,000 or more in this tourney, and can even near $2k here and there if i run horrid. Keep in mind, sometimes I hit early and double or triple immediately, and it only costs $309 total for the tourney, bringing my avg down. I know the value of a nice stack is near priceless in tourneys, because all I really play for is top 3(which is where all the +EV lies anyway). What are your thoughts on if I should try to approach this in a way that lowers my avg investment by perhaps $400ish, but also lowers my avg 1st break stack by 3,000 chips, or so?? The purest answer would probably be found by keeping records on how much I spend each time, and making calculations....but what are your thoughts???
Please give a detailed reason if possible to whichever opinions and thoughts you may have.
Much appreciated,
D´ Ry (not dry)
Danny
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Yep, I always read it as the dry not d-ry.
someone who playst he 100r tho can attest since im not good
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MR DRY I think you are one of the few who plays good enough to be able to spend whatever your feel is necessary to get an above avg stack..
Id say the average player spends too much on rebuys in this tourney - but you are not the average player(top 1.5% of players who play the 100r dailyish?)..
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helixx
(United States)
443
Posts.
Joined
09-23-2005.
03-07-2007 11:24 AM
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In reply to
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could you elaborate on how you play during the rebuy period? Are you moving all in almost every hand preflop, orjust calling a lot of raises to try and hit big hands, or just waiting for good drawing hands and moving all in/calling raises with them?
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What is your ROI in these tourneys?
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I cant wait for imper1um's answer
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D Ry,
I think that, because of your skill, you should continue to amass large amounts of chips early. My reasonsing is that, with more chips, you are able to use them more effectively than, say, I would (or any average player).
In addition, when you are actually UP AGAINST a very good player, one that possibly equals your skill, any difference in chip stack (where you have more) is where you actually gain an advantage.
Do you push with any two? What's your strategy during the first hour? You probably could just make small adjustments that equate to $$ savings over the course of a year.
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D-ry,
Holla.
I think the 109r and 215r should be played a little tighter than maybe the WSOP 33r and other smaller tournaments. Here is why I think this is true...
 The play is much tighter and the players are much better. The maniac rebuy strategy will certainly not have as much EV as it does in lower levels--even after the break. I think that in these tournaments you will often drop $2k or whatever far more often than you'll be in top 3 at the break.
The field is much smaller. Your money will be a larger % of the prize pool, meaning you'll have to finish much higher much more often for the tournament to be +EV. But, of course, the players are much better, so variance throws that out of wack. I'm not sure if this bullet makes complete sense, but it does in my head.
I'm usually in these things for 5-6 buyins. Of course, it is always -EV to quit before the first break. Never do that.
Table dynamic, yo. When I was playing the 215r this weekend, BackDoorovic was going all in every hand for the first half an hour or so. Obviously we will accept variance in these situations and widen our range, hoping to build a monster stack.
I ran out of ideas. A lot of this is basic, so I'll just say I wrote it for everyone, not just Danny.
Holla,
Goggles
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peeved
(United States)
3,695
Posts.
Joined
10-21-2006.
03-07-2007 11:33 AM
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In reply to
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I don't play at or near your level, and the $100r has a much smaller field than the low stakes rebuys I play which argues for spending money on a significant stack for the freezeout. But I've noticed in my huge field turnys that the leaderboard at the first break has only about a 10% coincidence with the second break's board and rarely gets anyone to the FT, let alone top 3. This suggests that a superstack is not critical to FTing the turny's I play. You might want to study how the big stacks do in your turnys and how much ev they gain from stacking up early. I don't think you'll find that stack size at the break (say top 5%) correlates especially stongly with a top three finish. That said, it seems almost pointless to go into the freezout with the minimum or near minimum, since you can't play a hand except for all your chips the second hour.
I usually set a target stack at the beginning of the rebuy (sometimes its 6k, sometimes 9k and it can change if I've got a wild table) and sit on all but premium hands once I get chips to play the freezout with.
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steely
(United States)
1,772
Posts.
Joined
03-14-2005.
03-07-2007 11:41 AM
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In reply to
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Funny -- you were at one of my tables last night and a dude was calling u Danny, and it dawned on me for the first time ever that your name is "the D- Ry" not "the Dry". I like "The Dry" better, but good to know. So anyway, D-ry....
I have no idea what is optimal in rebuy period but I think Shaniac wrote a good article on it. The first guy you should ask besides Shaniac is Phatcat, who is a sick 100r and 200r player who often lays out several rebuys to get his stack on.
FWIW, I think you have to gamble of course and press any edge for the chance to 2x or 3x, but I see a lot of guys who are just plain silly with the open shoves; that HAS to erode long term profitability.
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D' Ry,
I keep accurate stats on all my 100R buy-ins for this very reason. I'd say my approach is to gamble a little, but not excessively during the rebuy period, but I guess that's because my current approach to MTTs does not require a huge stack at any stage (but I'm willing to believe that maybe I need to develop my game a bit in this regard).
Anyway, from a sample size of 112 tournys including Stars+UB 100Rs (sorry not a huge sample, but only started playing these last Oct/Nov timeframe):
Average Buy-In: $504
ITM: 22/112 (20%)
FT: 12/112 (11%)
1st-3rd: 7/112 (6.2%)
1st: 3/112 (2.7%)
Average Cash: $1290
Average Profit: $786
ROI: 156%
My conclusion would be that if I rebought more than I do I would not expect to see a dramatic increase in the number of top three finishes or my average cash per tourny. As such my profit/ROI would probably decrease. If, say, I took one more double-rebuy gamble per tourny my average buy-in goes to $704 but I'd be lucky if my average cash improved by $100 (roughly equivalent to achieving one more top three finish). So my profit per MTT would go down $100 and my ROI down by a massive 59%
Now, hopefully I've not persuaded all the rebuy maniacs to stop doing it (especially you, imper1um) because some of my success is down to picking up pots during the rebuy period, but the night I won both Stars 100Rs (obv brag, sorry) I had around 7k at the break both times including the add-on.
cheers,
stu
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i don't have a very big sample size but I was just looking at all my stats for the 100r on stars and I was actually pretty surprised.
| $100r |
68 |
117% |
$471 |
$59,444 |
$26,788 |
$612 |
$32,043 |
So I guess I only spend about $400 per 100r which is like $1-200 less then I thought it was gonna be. Anyways I don't know the point to this is as I've added nothing to this lol, but those are my stats.
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if those are thepokerdb stats, then I think the rebuys are avg across everyone that enters....so the 1 buyin guys get same stat as imper1um!
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You need to think about tournaments mathematically. There is no "magic" that occurs by having a bigger stack; rather, having a stack of 2x has a value that approaches twice the value of a stack of x. I got into an argument at one dinner in the PCA about how maniacing can be correct. But it is never right to just gamble with the intent of trying to get chips if it is not mathematically correct. You need to estimate your edge, and play accordingly, factoring in your edge.
For instance, assume you have a 100 ROI regardless of the number of chips you have, and it is the last hand of the rebuy period, and you are in the BB against a SB push, with a 3k stack. If you fold leaving yourself with 3k, you will get to 5k with a value of roughly $600 in your hands. If you call and double up, you will now have 8k, worth about $950, if you lose, it will cost you $200 to get that $600 stack.
So if you win the allin, you gain $350, if you lose, you lose $200, so as long as you win 4/11 of the time, or roughtly 35% of the time, calling can be correct here. However, if this situation occured earlier in the tournament, it could more easily be passed up as you have more opportunities to take less -CEV spots that end up being more +$EV.
Also; as stacks get deeper, the value you gain by being able to rebuy back in becomes more and more marginal. In the past example, if you had 9k chips, you could addon to have an 11k stack worth $1300, if you lose and rebuy, your stack will be worth $600, after losing $200, if you win and double up, your stack will be worth close to $2400, so here you need to win about 7/18 of the time for a call to be correct.
Here if you win the allin, you win $1100, if you lose, you lose $900, so for a call to be correct, you need to win about 45% of the time.
Sorry for the rambling, just trying to give some sort of idea that maniacing these tournament requires a huge edge, and reasonable spots, calling allins with very marginal hands is very rarely correct in these tournaments without a stupidly huge edge. It should also be noted that as your stack becomes larger, your edge will decrease, which further limits the amount you should gamble.
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the pokerdb reflects prizepool/entries for each tournament, you cant get your rebuy information off of it
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