Poker Discussion Post

To answer your question:  AQ vs 1010 plays out, but it is all the plays/reads/moves prior to that flip that make up the game we love.  As graps mentioned earlier, try to improve on each street of every hand earlier in the tourney to max your stack to survive the flips.

Thousands of decisions are made in each tourney, the goal is to make as many correct decisions as possible.  There is no 'perfect poker'.  There is only the effort to play perfectly.  Mix in variance and bingo you have a recipe for frustration, if you are not mentally/emotionally tough enough to handle it. 

The best players adapt almost instantly to their current competition.  Work on that and you will have 'the edge'.

7CardRyon:

there is no edge. 

n2kfactor:

I'm sick of poker but I can't live without it..

jtown1010:

Man you guys are jerks, 3 pages and nobody answers this poor guys question.

OP, if you shove AQ into TT and lose near the end of a tourney, or vice versa, yes that is all luck.

n2kfactor:

Excluding the donk-type freeroll players which you'd hardly find , isn't poker just a game of luck when everyone is playing just perfectly especially towards later stages of tournaments..

For example, player A on BTN open-raises x3 with pocket 10s and player in SB shoves 6 big blinds with AQo and gets called..flop 267K9...gg AQ...nobody played wrong

I mean where's the edge coming from when everyone is playing just correctly?

I'm asking this because I face such situations towards later stages of tournaments and its just luck most of the time..whether the A misses or hits..thats all

This is why hsmtts are harder to beat than lower stakes mtts...the skill edge is decreasing but there's a reason gboro is ranked over some other ppl rather than just running well (only an example don't get ur panties in a bunch)....but seriously, there's a huge phucking skill gap at lower buy ins, and if you can't win, it doesn't mean there's not an edge...obviously some hands just rely on flipping a coin but one hand doesn't make up the whole mtt...ur posts really make me mad btw.

jtown1010:

Man you guys are jerks, 3 pages and nobody answers this poor guys question.

OP, if you shove AQ into TT and lose near the end of a tourney, or vice versa, yes that is all luck.

Click buttons!  Win moneys! Yay!

 playing a perfect game is impossible unless your playing a zero sum game. any game that involves incomplete information is impossible to play perfectly.

i dont think ive even been at a table yet with 8 players who played close to perfect. And certainly no tournament. However, if everyone played perfect, th

jdpc27:

jtown1010:

Man you guys are jerks, 3 pages and nobody answers this poor guys question.

OP, if you shove AQ into TT and lose near the end of a tourney, or vice versa, yes that is all luck.

Are you kidding me?  His question was answered several different times in this thread.  Some people like to lead people to water, and then allow them figure out how to drink it..thats how they will maximize their potential...but since you want it spelled out, get your notepads ready.

The edge comes from reading your opponents, thier position and likely opening and reraising ranges, their bet sizes, their stack sizes, and assigning ranges based on that information.  Most good players can do all of this. 

The great players then get their edge from the following:

Level 1) assign players a range and see how your hand fares against it..then make a couple decisions about how to play your hand...this is the what do u think he has?

Level 2) take into consideration what your opponent is likely to think you have, and how that can adjust how you play your hand..this is the what does he think u have?

Level 3) ask yourself if your opponent is capable of giving false information (can he appear weak when he is strong?  will he 4bet you light while appearing to be strong?, etc..and so forth..this is the what does he think u think he has?

Level 4) based on your answer in level 3, if he is capable, you may have to adjust your decisions in level 2.  ie..AJ suited is probably a clear fold if you are 4bet by someone not capable, and a fold, call, or reshove if he is capable.  Level 4 takes levels 1 thru 3 into account to decide on the most optimal play given all pieces of information.

Level 5) Perform levels 1-4 while also trying to think a street or two ahead of your opponent so you tell a cohesive story while exposing his.  bet sizes, image, position, and action by street should all match without conflicting.

The best poker players are already thinking thru levels 1 thru 4 before they even get involved in the hand, they have a plan on how to respond to various actions preflop, and usually a plan on how to play the various streets.  Mastery of the above thought process is where the edge comes from...and as such the best players will always be proactive in their thought processes while the good players will be reactive to your thought process.

Putting it all into practice. A good players thought process with AJ in late position late in a mtt might be the following:

I'm going to raise here in late position cuz i have AJ.

A better players prospective:

I'm going to raise here in late position with AJ.  If the blinds shove, i'll prob call cuz AJ is pretty good and they can be shoving light.

A great players prospective:

I'm going to raise here in late position with AJ.  If the cutoff 3 bets me, I will likely 4 bet him preflop as he has 3 bet the table several times last few orbits and i have been very active so my hand is underrepped from my position.  If sb raises me, I will lean towards folding cuz he has only played two hands out of his last 75, but i may take a flop in position.  If BB reshoves all in with his 15 bb stack, i will snap call as he has a reship stack and my previous notes on him states that he shoves reship stacks with a wide range.

However, if either the cutoff or bb just flats me, i will lean towards jamming the flop with the bb with regardless of flop, and vs. the cutoff i will need to look at flop texture before deciding on a course of action.

Then as the action unfolds, each assumption is revisiting and updated or changed based on the new information available and applying the level 1 to 4 thought processes on each street in the hand.

Any retard can shove KQ because he saw a training video saying that it was good to shove it from the BB (in that particular situation) when short.  But understanding why the shove was good is the key link missing from the average players game...they just know that they've seen moorman or pik do it, so it must be the right play.

Class dismissed...

JD

at the highest levels theres not as much of a edge anymore in NLHE as say there was maybe 5 years ago but theres plenty of other easy and good money to be made at the other levels. with the pokerboom the last cpl years overseas the higher stakes game should get jucier again soon tho. theres big edges to be had in the other/mix games definately tho. the games will never dry up , new people are born everyday and as long as that continues to happen new players are introduced all the time to the game, if you cant make a profit in this game either you arent puttin the necessarry time and volume in or you just arent good enough

jdpc27:

jtown1010:

Man you guys are jerks, 3 pages and nobody answers this poor guys question.

OP, if you shove AQ into TT and lose near the end of a tourney, or vice versa, yes that is all luck.

Are you kidding me?  His question was answered several different times in this thread.  Some people like to lead people to water, and then allow them figure out how to drink it..thats how they will maximize their potential...but since you want it spelled out, get your notepads ready.

The edge comes from reading your opponents, thier position and likely opening and reraising ranges, their bet sizes, their stack sizes, and assigning ranges based on that information.  Most good players can do all of this. 

The great players then get their edge from the following:

Level 1) assign players a range and see how your hand fares against it..then make a couple decisions about how to play your hand...this is the what do u think he has?

Level 2) take into consideration what your opponent is likely to think you have, and how that can adjust how you play your hand..this is the what does he think u have?

Level 3) ask yourself if your opponent is capable of giving false information (can he appear weak when he is strong?  will he 4bet you light while appearing to be strong?, etc..and so forth..this is the what does he think u think he has?

Level 4) based on your answer in level 3, if he is capable, you may have to adjust your decisions in level 2.  ie..AJ suited is probably a clear fold if you are 4bet by someone not capable, and a fold, call, or reshove if he is capable.  Level 4 takes levels 1 thru 3 into account to decide on the most optimal play given all pieces of information.

Level 5) Perform levels 1-4 while also trying to think a street or two ahead of your opponent so you tell a cohesive story while exposing his.  bet sizes, image, position, and action by street should all match without conflicting.

The best poker players are already thinking thru levels 1 thru 4 before they even get involved in the hand, they have a plan on how to respond to various actions preflop, and usually a plan on how to play the various streets.  Mastery of the above thought process is where the edge comes from...and as such the best players will always be proactive in their thought processes while the good players will be reactive to your thought process.

Putting it all into practice. A good players thought process with AJ in late position late in a mtt might be the following:

I'm going to raise here in late position cuz i have AJ.

A better players prospective:

I'm going to raise here in late position with AJ.  If the blinds shove, i'll prob call cuz AJ is pretty good and they can be shoving light.

A great players prospective:

I'm going to raise here in late position with AJ.  If the cutoff 3 bets me, I will likely 4 bet him preflop as he has 3 bet the table several times last few orbits and i have been very active so my hand is underrepped from my position.  If sb raises me, I will lean towards folding cuz he has only played two hands out of his last 75, but i may take a flop in position.  If BB reshoves all in with his 15 bb stack, i will snap call as he has a reship stack and my previous notes on him states that he shoves reship stacks with a wide range.

However, if either the cutoff or bb just flats me, i will lean towards jamming the flop with the bb with regardless of flop, and vs. the cutoff i will need to look at flop texture before deciding on a course of action.

Then as the action unfolds, each assumption is revisiting and updated or changed based on the new information available and applying the level 1 to 4 thought processes on each street in the hand.

Any retard can shove KQ because he saw a training video saying that it was good to shove it from the BB (in that particular situation) when short.  But understanding why the shove was good is the key link missing from the average players game...they just know that they've seen moorman or pik do it, so it must be the right play.

Class dismissed...

JD

Well, here's something I'm not sure everyone hit on here, there is no way to play poker perfectly.  No matter what you do, there is a counter for it?

If your going to raise every hand, I can wait back for big hands.  If you are going to play super tight, I'm going to raise up tons of hands and try to steal lots of pots.

Poker is a complicated game of rock/paper/sissors, you can never be perfect, hence everyone at your table is always beatable, if your one step ahead (unlike other games, being 2 or 3 or 4 steps ahead can mean your actually behind).

jtj03:

jdpc27:

jtown1010:

Man you guys are jerks, 3 pages and nobody answers this poor guys question.

OP, if you shove AQ into TT and lose near the end of a tourney, or vice versa, yes that is all luck.

Are you kidding me?  His question was answered several different times in this thread.  Some people like to lead people to water, and then allow them figure out how to drink it..thats how they will maximize their potential...but since you want it spelled out, get your notepads ready.

The edge comes from reading your opponents, thier position and likely opening and reraising ranges, their bet sizes, their stack sizes, and assigning ranges based on that information.  Most good players can do all of this. 

The great players then get their edge from the following:

Level 1) assign players a range and see how your hand fares against it..then make a couple decisions about how to play your hand...this is the what do u think he has?

Level 2) take into consideration what your opponent is likely to think you have, and how that can adjust how you play your hand..this is the what does he think u have?

Level 3) ask yourself if your opponent is capable of giving false information (can he appear weak when he is strong?  will he 4bet you light while appearing to be strong?, etc..and so forth..this is the what does he think u think he has?

Level 4) based on your answer in level 3, if he is capable, you may have to adjust your decisions in level 2.  ie..AJ suited is probably a clear fold if you are 4bet by someone not capable, and a fold, call, or reshove if he is capable.  Level 4 takes levels 1 thru 3 into account to decide on the most optimal play given all pieces of information.

Level 5) Perform levels 1-4 while also trying to think a street or two ahead of your opponent so you tell a cohesive story while exposing his.  bet sizes, image, position, and action by street should all match without conflicting.

The best poker players are already thinking thru levels 1 thru 4 before they even get involved in the hand, they have a plan on how to respond to various actions preflop, and usually a plan on how to play the various streets.  Mastery of the above thought process is where the edge comes from...and as such the best players will always be proactive in their thought processes while the good players will be reactive to your thought process.

Putting it all into practice. A good players thought process with AJ in late position late in a mtt might be the following:

I'm going to raise here in late position cuz i have AJ.

A better players prospective:

I'm going to raise here in late position with AJ.  If the blinds shove, i'll prob call cuz AJ is pretty good and they can be shoving light.

A great players prospective:

I'm going to raise here in late position with AJ.  If the cutoff 3 bets me, I will likely 4 bet him preflop as he has 3 bet the table several times last few orbits and i have been very active so my hand is underrepped from my position.  If sb raises me, I will lean towards folding cuz he has only played two hands out of his last 75, but i may take a flop in position.  If BB reshoves all in with his 15 bb stack, i will snap call as he has a reship stack and my previous notes on him states that he shoves reship stacks with a wide range.

However, if either the cutoff or bb just flats me, i will lean towards jamming the flop with the bb with regardless of flop, and vs. the cutoff i will need to look at flop texture before deciding on a course of action.

Then as the action unfolds, each assumption is revisiting and updated or changed based on the new information available and applying the level 1 to 4 thought processes on each street in the hand.

Any retard can shove KQ because he saw a training video saying that it was good to shove it from the BB (in that particular situation) when short.  But understanding why the shove was good is the key link missing from the average players game...they just know that they've seen moorman or pik do it, so it must be the right play.

Class dismissed...

JD

Not gonna lie one of my fav post in a while. If the OP doesnt read this and stop with his questions which I have to agree with beef are pretty annoying then just quit....seriously.