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Where's the edge coming from when all players are perfect?
n2kfactor (United States) 346 Posts. Joined 10-26-2008.
05-14-2009 9:47 PM

Excluding the donk-type freeroll players which you'd hardly find , isn't poker just a game of luck when everyone is playing just perfectly especially towards later stages of tournaments..

For example, player A on BTN open-raises x3 with pocket 10s and player in SB shoves 6 big blinds with AQo and gets called..flop 267K9...gg AQ...nobody played wrong

I mean where's the edge coming from when everyone is playing just correctly?

I'm asking this because I face such situations towards later stages of tournaments and its just luck most of the time..whether the A misses or hits..thats all

 
 
 

MackTheGirls (United States) 171 Posts. Joined 11-23-2007.
05-15-2009 1:33 AM - In reply to

n2kfactor: 

Yeah but where's the edge when I'm shoving 99 and getting called by QA??

There are hardly any donks in the game I play...

ITS ALWAYS A COINFLIP ALL THE TIME...I don't know why


"If you can't spot the sucker in the first half hour at the table, then you ARE the sucker" -Mikey McD

downbylaw11 (Canada) 3,442 Posts. Joined 06-16-2007.
05-15-2009 1:47 AM - In reply to

Beaver Fever: 

 Stop being such a poon tang and get better.



really?!

Gregtzky (United States) 56 Posts. Joined 01-09-2008.
05-15-2009 1:52 AM - In reply to

N2KFACTOR, I look forward to every one of your posts... Thank You. Keep 'em Comin.

houston_wildcard (United States) 254 Posts. Joined 01-11-2007.
05-15-2009 1:53 AM - In reply to

 Doyle, Barry, Ted Forrest, Jennifer and the rest of the crew often play together waiting on just one big fish to sit down. The late Chip Reese put it so eloquently, "Sometimes you have to play with little or no edge just to keep the store open, in case a wealthy fish walks in."


illumirunus (United States) 36 Posts. Joined 03-22-2009.
05-15-2009 3:28 AM - In reply to

n2kfactor: 

Yeah but where's the edge when I'm shoving 99 and getting called by QA??

There are hardly any donks in the game I play...

ITS ALWAYS A COINFLIP ALL THE TIME...I don't know why

maybe you should play limit lol

jinglenutz (United States) 76 Posts. Joined 02-22-2009.
05-15-2009 3:33 AM - In reply to

AmSlim22: 

find one player that is playing perfectly....   



#1PEN

7CardRyon (United States) 118 Posts. Joined 07-29-2008.
05-15-2009 4:02 AM - In reply to

n2kfactor: 

Excluding the donk-type freeroll players which you'd hardly find , isn't poker just a game of luck when everyone is playing just perfectly especially towards later stages of tournaments..

For example, player A on BTN open-raises x3 with pocket 10s and player in SB shoves 6 big blinds with AQo and gets called..flop 267K9...gg AQ...nobody played wrong

I mean where's the edge coming from when everyone is playing just correctly?

I'm asking this because I face such situations towards later stages of tournaments and its just luck most of the time..whether the A misses or hits..thats all




there is no edge.  switch to mixed games where there is an edge (like i did two years ago) and change with the times.  thats what great bands do, thats what other artists do, and thats what smart poker players should do. 

ps. check out the thread "to all the one trick donkey nl players" there is a lot of insight to what your asking here.

SJUHawks18 (United States) 75 Posts. Joined 03-27-2009.
05-15-2009 4:12 AM - In reply to

Are we really starting this again...


Deoxyribo (United States) 1,706 Posts. Joined 06-01-2008.
05-15-2009 4:26 AM - In reply to

MackTheGirls: 

n2kfactor: 

Yeah but where's the edge when I'm shoving 99 and getting called by QA??

There are hardly any donks in the game I play...

ITS ALWAYS A COINFLIP ALL THE TIME...I don't know why


"If you can't spot the sucker in the first half hour at the table, then you ARE the sucker" -Mikey McD


<3 rounders

thearthurdog (Australia) 1,048 Posts. Joined 01-15-2008.
05-15-2009 5:46 AM - In reply to

n2kfactor: 

I don't understand...PXF won't help me either

the only thing I learned from PXF is open shove ATC in SB against <10BB opp.

and yeah, raising some more hands from LP and Cbing etc.etc.


Yeah you are right. Total waste of time. That Bax guy is shit. I just wasted half a night watching that PearlJammer and he has no idea either. Fukking waste of money. Seriously PearlJammer's whole game is great bet sizing, crushing people when they show weakness, assigning near perfect ranges to people and making near perfect calls. Donkey, he's just lucky. You should see if you could get backed because if you were a high stakes MTT regular you would dominate.

SARCASM !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

jdpc27 (United States) 405 Posts. Joined 02-26-2007.
05-15-2009 6:44 AM - In reply to

Playing Perfect Poker doesn't exist.  The whole basis of tournament poker is to make assumptions on image, opening, 3bet / 4 bet ranges, etc..etc...its all based on assumptions and how your hand fares against those assumptions.  Every great player makes several mistakes daily, not taking the optimal line or making an incorrect assumption on an image or a range.  end thread.

My personal opinion is that with all the internet training sites and forums, more people are not necessarily playing "perfect" poker, but instead, more people are playing the same type of poker.  That can be a good or bad thing, depending on how you respond to it.  If you don't adapt, it sucks as people are playing a style that increases your variance and puts you in more marginal situations as opposed to dominating ones. With that said, those that adapt and play a level above the rest will continue to crush.  All the rages today (treating KQ like the nuts from late position, reshoving light just cuz you have a reshove stack, reshoving any two from the blinds) are not only exploitable, but extremely profitable to those that turn that shyt on its head.

three years ago, everyone played tight poker following standard opening rules and the rest played like retards.  The players that realized that began to crush tournaments just by using uber aggression as they would be given way too much credit for their openings and reraises / reshoves.  These players exploited the fact that most players played the same way.

Now everyone has been taught to overuse aggression, and its the same thing all over again.  The best players will exploit the fact that most players while completely different players from say 2 or 3 years ago, they still play the same way as a collective group.  Some fundamentals won't change...in the mtt world today, variance has increased and you will face more marginal situations than ever before.  Most will be a slave to the process and attribute every deep run fail as bad luck with coinflips.  A select few will adapt, embrace variance, and learn to love marginal situations if they include some sort of illusion of FE, and continue to crush.

While I am not a personal fan of the high variance style, I will also admit that it has never been easier to take 20-50bb's off of someone than it is in today's environment.  Shyt...i've seen guys get in 200 bb's + with hands like AQ and 99....hands that noone would have dreamed playing for 30bb's just a couple years ago.

Cliff notes version:

If you think everyone is playing perfect poker, than you are the fish at the table

If you think all your non scores are attributable to losing all your coinflips, you are the fish at the table

Be an individual and not the group, adapt to the group, exploit the group, and own the group....all the meanwhile selling additional services to the community like access to your website or replays of your sunday major win so you can make even more money off the group while you help to define their style of their play even more while you continue to refine and adapt your play to exploit theirs. all the meanwhile, they are thanking you in comments on your training site for helping improve their play as they sign up for another 6 month subscription and begin playing above their roll due to a newfound false confidence dumping even more dead money into the higher stake buyins.  Yup..the door behind the door in poker is dark and ugly.  And we haven't even begun to talk about backing, poor bankroll management, MA'ing, soft play, "pros" that go busto several times a year, etc..etc...

Now that i think about it..just hang it up now kid...you'll save yourself a lot of time and anguish.


JD



Zarpheous (United States) 354 Posts. Joined 09-26-2008.
05-15-2009 7:31 AM - In reply to

 Best post I've ever read on this topic.


franky73 (United Kingdom) 209 Posts. Joined 07-21-2008.
05-15-2009 8:21 AM - In reply to

Zarpheous: 

 Best post I've ever read on this website


Jennifear (United States) 9,064 Posts. Joined 11-01-2005.
05-15-2009 8:54 AM - In reply to

Trust me n2kfactor, the games you are playing are riddled with severe mistakes.  Keep studying the game and you'll learn to spot them.


jtown1010 (United States) 20,649 Posts. Joined 01-13-2006.
05-15-2009 9:05 AM - In reply to

Man you guys are jerks, 3 pages and nobody answers this poor guys question.

OP, if you shove AQ into TT and lose near the end of a tourney, or vice versa, yes that is all luck.

 
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