Hand Advice
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I think the problem was reading TJ's book, because after reading it my play has been tighter than ever - and it's killing my game. The problem now is that I can't seem to loosen my game up at all. Just to give a few examples (all around a 8 - 10 player table) :
- I'll fold small pairs from the first few seats
- Won't call raises in the middle or late positon unless I have a big pair, or a big ace
- I won't make moves from the button at all because I know I'll get a loose caller or two...and even if I do raise it preflop, if I get even one caller, I think I'm behind in the hand already and mentally give up the pot unless I hit the flop hard, unless I have a monster hand.
Does anyone have any suggestions on what I can do to loosen up my game so I'm not just sitting there folding hand after hand?? Yes, I know patience is good, but not when you're only playing about 15-20% of the hands dealt. Maybe it's just a mental thing and I need to overcome it...
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A couple things. I assume you are talking about MTTs, hope so, because I have very little useful cash game advice.
1. I like to play small pairs from early position usually only in the first two levels or so of an mtt. I'm trying to hit trips, I'm not risking many chips and I'd like to get a big stack early if possible. Later, calling with these hands from early position is just a good way to throw away chips.
2. You shouldn't be calling many raises from middle or late position without big pairs or a big ace, although sometimes you can certainly call with your mid pairs depening on your read of the raiser.
3. As far as making moves from the button and in late position, this is all very situational stuff. Remember that you can loosen up your starting requirements from late position. Hands like KQ or even KJ that are junk hands early become raising hands from the button or the cutoff if nobody else has entered the pot.
4. As far as the rest goes, it sounds like you may be way too tight passive. Remember that just because you missed your hand, doesn't mean the other guy hit his. In NL you really don't need the cards to win pots, remember that, don't just give up hands when you miss the flop, strong opponents will realize you are doing this and run over you. They also won't pay you off when you hit because it will be clear when you actually have a hand.
5. Actually 15-20% is not a bad number. It kind of depends on your style, some people prefer to be looser, some tighter, you need to find a style thats comfortable for you. Just remember that if you are going to be tight, be tight aggressive, not tight weak.
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Reading TJ's books is the #1 cause of Weak/Tight play in my opinion. You have to read the NL section in Super/System (and I have to say, I prefer the writing of the section in SS1 to SS2, but either will do.)
Having said that, playing 15%-20% of hands isn't really bad, as long as you're then agressively trying to win them all. If you just check/fold whenever you miss the flop, you're in for a lot of finishes just out of the money.
Remember, you're not just playing your cards, you're playing your position, chip stack, and the other players. When you're not getting cards, look for opportunities to get in and take smaller pots while minimizing your risk.
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Of the 3 things you mention, only the 3rd one really worries me. The second one is half good/half bad. The third issue seems to be one of confidence and THAT is a problem. You have to say "f you" to your opponants mentally. When you raise in late position and get a caller...bet the flop...in your head say "f you...Im going to MAKE you have a good hand to play". If you get reraised preflop, thats one thing...but if you get a decent hand in late position, bet and get a caller...chances are you have the best hand. The second one is only a small issue...I dont mind folding crappy cards in middle position to a raise, but in late position, with decent cards, you have to play. You will win SO many of those times. Hell, if you have position, try a reraise sometimes. Lastly, you seem to be dependant on your cards a little too much. Poer is 30-40% cards and 60-70% your opponant. Many times that you play your opponant is going to have the best hand...however, if you put your opponant on AK and the flop is 6-7-8, with two spades and you bet, your opponant will often fold. So a lot of the time it doesnt MATTER what your cards are..try to play your opponants a little more..
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Supermoves, I think you make a good point here. I've definitely experienced the situation where the level of tightness precludes making any real money. I've also gone too far the other way (or just had horrible timing) and run into big hands when I was taking only "decent" cards too far.
Can you write a little more on this one? For instance, what do you consider a worthwhile holding to play in position if there are 2x, 3x or 4x raises in front of you?
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Actually, I think you may be missing the point. What Im saying is that the cards really dont matter that much. You can get a decent list of hands to play in which positions in a million places on the net...what Im talking about is this....Lets say there is a raise in front of you to 3xBB and you look down to fin 5-7 of diamonds...if you can afford to do it, try a reraise...see what happens...when the flop comes out rags, bet out..I bet you'll take it down more than you think.
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I understand what you are saying. I was just trying to get a sense of what types of hands you might be more inclined to take a flyer with than others. 57 suited makes sense on occassion, but would make the same call with KT?
If you do and once again the flop comes rags, you can obviously play it the same way you suggested with 57. But if a K or T hits and you're bet into it starts feeling like trouble.
I'll go for terrible stretches with nothing better in position but J4 suited or Q7 suited at best. Do you still advocate making a play if the hands are that bad? I've always considered them complete trash, but then again I've bubbled due to short stack syndrome far more often that I'd like.
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Supermoves your post is very educational as usual. You are so right. The confidence issue IS a big problem. On a snowboard you are not supposed to ride terrain that makes you so fearful that you have bad form. You have to stay on terrain that you can ride aggressively without fear with the proper stance.
The same thing is true in poker - drop down a limit until you can play a suited connector from position for a raise now and then - without being scared shitless. Just like snowboarding - if you have all your weight back cause your scared - it just makes you fall down - which only reinforces being scared - and make you fall down even more.
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Murph that is too funny, in a sad way: when I read TJ's
book my game did the *exact* same thing. My worst month of
playing so far was the month after I read that damnable book.
In my opinion TJ gives you advice without the knowledge of why when and
how to implement it. Try to forget everything he said.
Once you've forgotten it, go buy Harrington on Hold'em
vol1. If you already own it, read it. if you've
already read it, read it again. If you've read it twice and
are still struggling, make sure you're thinking through all of
the problems as best as you can before reading his solutions.
Once you read his solutions, make sure you understand why he came
to those conclusions (even if you don't agree with them)
The whole book is about what to be thinking about when making decisions
in poker, and that is the only advice worth listening to in my
opinion. So really it isn't a book you should "read" but rather
one you need to interract with. If you put
a lot of effort into solving the problems in the book and
understanding when and why to implement what you've read, I
guarantee
your game will be back on track.
Good luck!
Bill
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WEC
(United States)
979
Posts.
Joined
04-27-2005.
07-13-2005 2:02 AM
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In reply to
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Ha--
When you get to my 8-15% or below you can worry. Tight can win. Just like anything else you have to do it right.
It just means you have to be RIGHT more often when you do play.
I can play any style--but the one you describe above works best for me when it comes to money!
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I don't f*ck around when I'm snowboarding...."I ain't skeered" when I'm hitting the jumps, or grinding the rails...
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Great posts. I finished TJ's book a few weeks ago and my game has
become extremely tight since. Way too tight for MTT. I always end up
having to race at least two times just to make it to the money when I
should be playing for first place. My tournament life depends too much
on my cards. I need to use his information to help me analyze certain
situations that I am in rather than having the book dictate my play as
much as it has lately. Keep 'em coming.
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My opinion, too tight is a stage that you go through as a natural progression through poker. There will become a point really soon when you have the confidence to play marginal hands out of position because you realize that your starting hand is only about 2/3 of the game. Soon, you'll start to recognize situations in poker, not just starting hands. You'll realize that it doesn't matter what you have so much as what they THINK YOU have and what THEY DO have. This is totally a confidence thing which will come with experience. In the WSOP main event, I laid down AK after flopping A7J and turning a Q because I knew I was beat. When you can make lay downs when you know you are beat, then you can loosen up.
Believe it or not, when I started playing WPT main events is when my style became looser. I know that sounds strange because you hear guys like Doyle and TJ talk about AQ and KQ like they are 7 2. Read through the live update logs for the WSOP and notice the hands being played - I think most people are surprised to see all of the people winning and busting out with hands that the books tell you to fold. Situations dictate the game a lot.
In the Bellagio 1k on Sunday, I was in about 17th or 18th chip position with 19 players left and top 18 getting paid. I was in the BB with A8o when the SB raised it to 4x BB. Because of the bubble situation and me being a short stack, I felt that the SB would raise with anything just to steal the blinds. I played the situation and pushed all-in with about 90% comfort level that A high was good and the guy would probably only call about 70% of the time. The SB did call me with QJ and all of the other players from other tables came around to watch me become the bubble boy. My A held up, I doubled up to ressurrect my tourney, and got a very nice compliment from TJ Cloutier about recognizing the situation and taking advantage of it. The point of the story is to start thinking situationally.
From the cutoff seat, open with a raise with any suited A or K, any suited connectors, any pair, any two broadways, any one-gappers. If someone calls you, at least you have a shot at flopping something big. You will win the blinds probably half the time against good competition and the other half you've got control of the pot with cards that can be sneaky if they flop right. If someone goes over the top of you, believe them and fold. It's nice to have someone itching to go over the top of you when you do have a good hand. Experiment with it because this is a good way to start loosening up. Later on, you'll be good enough to play 72o UTG ;-)
If you enter a tourney with 400 people and you only rely on your good cards to get you through it, you will not win very often. Playing tight you will still win more than the average joe, but maybe not enough to make MTT's very profitable.
I bet most people have busted out of more tourneys with AA, KK, AK, and AQ than with any other 20 hands........
One last thing, if you are not calling moderate raises from late position or limping in from early position with small to medium pocket pairs, you are playing with a half-loaded revolver. Sets are like armor penetrating bullets. If you and the other player both have more than 12x-15x his bet, take a stab at getting all of his chips. I don't like to open with a raise from early position with small pairs because then I can't call a re-raise. If I limp and someone bumps it 3x my bet, I can still decide to take a flop.
Hope some of this helps you.
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This is an FANTASTIC post...pretty much what I was looking for, and more; this is great stuff. I appreciate your input into this...I'll start loosening up my game in late position, and try to migrate that to early position. Thanks .
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WEC
(United States)
979
Posts.
Joined
04-27-2005.
07-14-2005 2:55 AM
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In reply to
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Yes, I would have to concur that Mr Nutz's postings and articles are intelligent, insightful and thorough. Probably an excellent player to hang onto and become mentored. I would watch him very carefully if he shows up in your MTT room or any poker room.
I would classify TJ as oldschool "tight". No good player plays ABC every minute of their life. But TJ is the best example of a tight player who makes a ton. It is not the preferred method of many at the moment, but if it is the style and image that works for you--you CAN make lots of money.
I am a very tight player and I do now and have always consistently won in both ring games and tournys for the past 15 years, including many major tournament wins, and a TON of other minor tourny wins and one to four a month online. At times I do not cash as high as a looser player, but just as many times I make a significant cash when the loose player does not. I can limp along the bottom of the leaderboard for an entire tournament.
My only point is--MANY difffernt styles can and do win in Poker. You must try several styles until the one that best fits your personality shines through in the win column most sucessfully.
And whichever style you choose, you must always correctly read play and learn other players styles and adjust your play accordingly.
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