Hand Advice Post

I like the play.  Obv I think check raiser has a set.  Coin flip IMO.   

You played it to hit exactly this kind of flop, you are ~54% unless you are facing a bigger flush draw or a made set. You have to get your chips in here but you are still going broke ~46% of the time - accepting a high level of variance is just the price of playing these kinds of hands.

Overall a good play

my 2 cents

Defndrofangels:

I like the play.  Obv I think check raiser has a set.  Coin flip IMO.   

 fold hand PF 100% of the time vs that stack. villain isn't even remotely close to deep for you to profitably call this PF and you aren't even full stacked either.  he doesn't even have a full stack...almost half ...fold PF

BUT as played, your hand looks 100% like a fdraw so if you were trying to get him off a hand here, )which i'm assuming you weren't because the flop smacked you right in the face), it prolly won't work. there really is no difference between raising to 10 or shoving here so your play is fine. there is no "should i have gone broke here" you want the stack in the middle here 100% of the time.

KidDelicious:

 fold hand PF 100% of the time vs that stack. villain isn't even remotely close to deep for you to profitably call this PF and you aren't even full stacked either.  he doesn't even have a full stack...almost half ...fold PF

Lord Supremo:

I think preflop call is semi-iffy but I thought that with position and the chance that one or both of the blinds might come along it was fine.

True the villian isn't really deep enough at ~57 BBs but I think the blinds will come in enough for this to be OK long run. On a live cash tables this would be fine on 1/2 or 2/3 with the raiser having 50 BBs & the blinds at 100+.

my 2 cents

saukendar:

KidDelicious:

 fold hand PF 100% of the time vs that stack. villain isn't even remotely close to deep for you to profitably call this PF and you aren't even full stacked either.  he doesn't even have a full stack...almost half ...fold PF

Lord Supremo:

I think preflop call is semi-iffy but I thought that with position and the chance that one or both of the blinds might come along it was fine.

True the villian isn't really deep enough at ~57 BBs but I think the blinds will come in enough for this to be OK long run. On a live cash tables this would be fine on 1/2 or 2/3 with the raiser having 50 BBs & the blinds at 100+.

my 2 cents

 

 

KidDelicious:

you can't justify calling based on assumptions the blinds will come in.  this is not a profitable play in the long run vs short stackers because you will be folding over 75% of the time.  what do you do if the flop comes 6 high? call a bet for half his stack and hate life on the turn when he shoves? live cash this still is only a justifible call IF you are over 120ish BB deep or are closing the action with 3+ people in the pot behind you.  calling raises with these kind of connectors when you aren't deep ( meaning over 100bb- the full buyin at a table) is just burning money.

saukendar:

KidDelicious:

you can't justify calling based on assumptions the blinds will come in.  this is not a profitable play in the long run vs short stackers because you will be folding over 75% of the time.  what do you do if the flop comes 6 high? call a bet for half his stack and hate life on the turn when he shoves? live cash this still is only a justifible call IF you are over 120ish BB deep or are closing the action with 3+ people in the pot behind you.  calling raises with these kind of connectors when you aren't deep ( meaning over 100bb- the full buyin at a table) is just burning money.

You don't need the blinds in always. It costs you 3 BB to look & he has 55 more back, you only need a little extra over that. Getting better than 2:1 one of the blinds is coming along a biger % of the time than you need to make this work. Yes you are giving up 3 BB a bunch of times, but that OK too. You have to play & show down dogsnot sometimes, both call behind & reraise the same as you have to play your monsters light sometimes, you might as well be use marginaly EV+ spots for this.

another 2 cents

I agree with just about all of what you said above, KidDelicious.  Just fwiw tho, the chance of the blinds coming along in this hand were very good, iirc the big blind in particular was highly L/P, had seen them get involved in a "cascade of callers" on a few other occasions, and neither of them were inclined to squeeze at all.  Given this likelihood (I put it at about 50-60% that at least one of the blinds was calling, less than 2% either would squeeze, and my bad for not putting this in the OP, was more focused on the flop play at the time) does this change your opinion of the call? 

Obviously if we had TAG villains in the blinds that were folding a huge majority of the time and 3betting most of the rest of the time this isn't a good spot to call but given the strong chance we'll have position in a semi-bloated pot vs full stacked donks for cheap, i'm inclined to think the call is fine...poss I'm missing something tho?

 no it's still a bad call because all it is is just an "assumption."  a call here with hands like 64 75s type hands are okay vs lags that have a much larger, deeper stack. hands like 64 play the exact same way as hands like 22 or 66 here.  you should never be calling here with them.  either reraise or fold...weighing more heavily on the fold.

 I'm sort of confused...what does 3betting do for the value of our hand here?  Obviously its good for range balancing purposes and frequently wins us the original raise, but if that's all I'm after I can simply 3bet air to accomplish those goals...I don't need to have a hand with actual value, which our hand here has.  It seems to me like the ideal situation for a hand like mine to be in is in position in a somewhat large, multiway pot where it doesn't take too many bets for an overpair/TPGK type hand to get all in...and that just never happens if we're only ever 3betting or folding here.

Another point maybe you could help me out with...are you suggesting that we should never consider the action of those behind us when deciding how to play our hand?  I'm curious why you're so quick to write off thinking about the blinds' potential action as "assumption"

 the three betting dynamics of this hand are heavily based on the opponent and his stack size, opening ranges, position.  this hand in particular should not be 3 bet vs this specific oponnent due to reasoning i gave above. an ideal situation for this hand would be deeper stacks because all you are doing is playing fit or fold vs a short stack which is my point of burning money. in a 6 max game, your decisions aren't weighed that heavily on the players behind you because often times its only 2-3 players to see a flop.  i would be okay with this call if the utg raises and there was a caller behind you that will give you implied odds of stacking off if you hit your hand. it's basically the same idea of calling an utg raise from the bb with something like kq or 22.  vs a nit, you dont have implied odds because you wont get money in the pot with the best hand often enough to warrent a call.

the blinds potential action is exactly that..an assumption.  you are assuming the blinds will come along.

a better situation to describe something that would be okay is say there was a limper who limp/calls just about everything.  he limps..somebody isolates at 25nl to like 1.10 or 1 or w/e 25nl iso raises are, and you have a hand like 33, then it's fine because your implied odds are better vs a calling station and you can safely assume that the limper will now call.  you shoud be doing this more times than none in position.

mind you this is only 25nl so there is really no need to get crafty at micros.  abc tag poker will make you the most money at these levels.

if you want really good 6 max advice, google "ryan fee's 6 max guide" it's the best free 6 max guide available.  helped me a ton moving up to 2/4.