1. we both know that there is no such thing as a free market - it's a fantasy land.
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  2. no probs Gin - been to Fort Payne AL many times and it was dry for the longest time. I feel your pain. Let me know when you're back in the north and we can spill beers.
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  3.  
    Originally Posted by cmval View Post

    a lot of the middle class is one emergency away from being poor and having to rely on some type of assistance

    the boomers have fucked us

    the financial habits of the middle class have changed drastically in the 30 years I've been an adult. I was taught we should save 15% of our income. Today the average people save is 4% with the majority saving less than 1%. We live in a "I see it, I want it, I need it" society. Why should I save for something when i can get it on payments?

    If I'm in a financial situation where if I miss one check I'm ruined then I am more likely to take shit at work, work for less money and feel stressed. If I'm in a financial situation where I can miss 6 months then I can tell the boss FU I was looking for a job when I found this one. I can hold out and say nah, ain't working for peanuts and will feel less stressed.

    We've hurt ourselves with our habits and leadership has no idea how to fix things AND get re-elected. I am just going to get mines and keep what they let me.
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  4.  
    Originally Posted by ginwilly View Post

    the financial habits of the middle class have changed drastically in the 30 years I've been an adult. I was taught we should save 15% of our income. Today the average people save is 4% with the majority saving less than 1%. We live in a "I see it, I want it, I need it" society. Why should I save for something when i can get it on payments?


    Why should people save and make less on their money than inflation, especially when credit is so cheap. I wonder if there are certain government policies that reward this debtor mentality...
     3
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  5.  
    Originally Posted by Dyzalot View Post

    Read the article I posted. It isn't that the poor are getting poor while the rich get richer, it is that the poor fall farther "behind" the rich even though they also make gains compared to ten, twenty or fifty years ago. Everyone getting richer just doesn't seem like a problem to me. To me the problem seems to be that too many people care more about how rich their neighbor is getting as opposed to focusing on their own well being.

    Wages haven't increased for the middle class in almost half a century while productivity has skyrocketed and the distribution created by that disparity has overwhelmingly gone to the super rich. A boom and bust cycle is encouraged by this disparity. When the buying power of a large middle class disappears you can't really have an economy based entirely on consumption.
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  6.  
    Originally Posted by Dyzalot View Post

    Free market makes it harder for monopolies to form, not easier.

    ...in theory.
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  7.  
    Originally Posted by nowapowa View Post

    ...in theory.


    In practice as well. Name a single monopoly in history that persisted without the aid of government intervention.
     3
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  8.  
    Originally Posted by norcaljeff View Post

    Today's poor dont have more education, more food, better housing, less workng hours, better health care, more conveniences etc than in the past? Lol

    Edit: and dyz is right, as usual

    now they just have to be debt slaves forever when they finish school (thank the privatization of upper education for that). food deserts on the rise. not really sure how you can say health care is better when most poor people only go to the doctor when it's emergency (note the recent trend of people going to emergency rooms for dental care). more conveniences as in more convenience stores?
    Edited By: nowapowa Jun 20th, 2012 at 05:50 AM
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  9.  
    Originally Posted by nowapowa View Post

    now they just have to be debt slaves forever when they finish school (thank the privatization of upper education for that). food deserts on the rise. not really sure how you can say health care is better when most poor people only go to the doctor when it's emergency (note the recent trend of people going to emergency rooms for dental care). more conveniences as in more convenience stores?


    Because of rising prices from government subsidization. Food deserts on the rise and people try to block companies like Wal Mart from moving in to areas and alleviate that issue. Pretty sure the poor enjoy a longer average lifespan than they did 10, 20 or 50 years ago. More conveniences as in refrigerators, vacuum cleaners, washing machines, dishwashers, televisions, mobile phones, computers, cars...
     3
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  10.  
    Originally Posted by Dyzalot View Post

    In practice as well. Name a single monopoly in history that persisted without the aid of government intervention.

    Standard Oil.

    Regardless of monopolies almost all of the technological innovations of the latter half of the 20th century have come from government sponsorship of research: the internet, computers, information processing, transistors, lasers, satellites. That was a list composed by Alan Greenspan who was ironically extolling the virtues of the free market.

    In our history, over and over again, risk is socialized and profits privatized.
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  11.  
    Originally Posted by Dyzalot View Post

    Because of rising prices from government subsidization. Food deserts on the rise and people try to block companies like Wal Mart from moving in to areas and alleviate that issue. Pretty sure the poor enjoy a longer average lifespan than they did 10, 20 or 50 years ago. More conveniences as in refrigerators, vacuum cleaners, washing machines, dishwashers, televisions, mobile phones, computers, cars...

    the state used to make many universities free. their value generating potential being self evident and fulfilling. now universities are increasingly being turned into profit making institutions in and of themselves. class sizes up. more classes being taught by grad students. libraries and departments being closed. all while the cost of administration skyrockets.
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  12.  
    Originally Posted by Dyzalot View Post

    Because of rising prices from government subsidization. Food deserts on the rise and people try to block companies like Wal Mart from moving in to areas and alleviate that issue. Pretty sure the poor enjoy a longer average lifespan than they did 10, 20 or 50 years ago. More conveniences as in refrigerators, vacuum cleaners, washing machines, dishwashers, televisions, mobile phones, computers, cars...

    how are we doing spiritually? do you think we're a happier people?
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  13.  
    Originally Posted by nowapowa View Post

    Standard Oil.


    Standard Oil was a monopoly for about five years. And was the predominate operating system for computers over the past thirty years developed from government sponsorship? Compact discs? HDTV? Blue Ray? the Walkman? the credit card? Power steering? the bar code? the synthesizer? oral contraceptives? just a few examples...


    oh and lasers weren't invented by the government.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_Gould
     3
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  14.  
    Originally Posted by nowapowa View Post

    how are we doing spiritually? do you think we're a happier people?


    I don't think "we" can have emotions so I don't concern myself with how "happy" we are. Only individuals have emotions.
     3
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  15.  
    Originally Posted by Dyzalot View Post

    I don't think "we" can have emotions so I don't concern myself with how "happy" we are. Only individuals have emotions.

    idk, i think how happy people say they are is a strong indicator for the health of a society. you don't think its important to understand the mental welfare of specific groups of oppressed people?
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  16.  
    Originally Posted by Dyzalot View Post

    I don't think "we" can have emotions so I don't concern myself with how "happy" we are. Only individuals have emotions.


    Ever been to a rock concert?
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  17.  
    Originally Posted by Dyzalot View Post

    Standard Oil was a monopoly for about five years. And was the predominate operating system for computers over the past thirty years developed from government sponsorship? Compact discs? HDTV? Blue Ray? the Walkman? the credit card? Power steering? the bar code? the synthesizer? oral contraceptives? just a few examples...

    oh and lasers weren't invented by the government.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_Gould

    are you talking about Bill Gates? who "attributes his success to his ability to 'embrace and extend' the ideas of others, commonly others in the public sector."

    --"Microsoft Researches Its Future," Science, Feb. 27, 1998.
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  18.  
    Originally Posted by nowapowa View Post

    idk, i think how happy people say they are is a strong indicator for the health of a society. you don't think its important to understand the mental welfare of specific groups of oppressed people?


    No. I prefer to not think of people in groups.
     3
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  19.  
    Originally Posted by nowapowa View Post

    are you talking about Bill Gates? who "attributes his success to his ability to 'embrace and extend' the ideas of others, commonly others in the public sector."

    --"Microsoft Researches Its Future," Science, Feb. 27, 1998.


    And? Was he getting government sponsorship in the early 80's?
     3
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  20.  
    Originally Posted by Dyzalot View Post

    In practice as well. Name a single monopoly in history that persisted without the aid of government intervention.

    Name a single industrialized economy in history that persisted without what you would describe as "government intervention."
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  21.  
    Originally Posted by p00pymcp00perton View Post

    Ever been to a rock concert?

    hahahaha. no silly, Libertarians don't have collective experiences.
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  22.  
    Originally Posted by p00pymcp00perton View Post

    Ever been to a rock concert?


    Given that example, do you think we should put to a vote what rock concerts should be allowed so as to foster the most positive emotional responses for society?
     3
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  23. I'm down to ban Indigo Girls concerts
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  24.  
    Originally Posted by nowapowa View Post

    the state used to make many universities free. their value generating potential being self evident and fulfilling. now universities are increasingly being turned into profit making institutions in and of themselves. class sizes up. more classes being taught by grad students. libraries and departments being closed. all while the cost of administration skyrockets.


    University prices are skyrocketing because of government guaranteed loans.
     


    From 1976 to 2010, the prices of all commodities rose 280 percent. The price of homes rose 400 percent. Private education? A whopping 1,000 percent.

    [See a slideshow of the 10 U.S. cities with the highest real incomes.]

    In the end, this bubble will be worse than the last. Even when homeowners got hopelessly behind on their mortgages, two options helped. First, they could declare bankruptcy and free themselves of their crippling debt; second, they could sell their houses to pay down most of their loans.

    Students don't have either of these options. It's illegal to absolve student loan debt through bankruptcy, and you can't sell back an education.

    The simple fact of the matter should be obvious by now: Government created this mess, in both instances, by forcing the market to provide loans it would not have granted otherwise. As is its custom, government did by force what no private lender would have ever done by choice. This is the breeding ground for bubbles, and this one will burst just as they all do. As with the last bubble, politicians will blame the “greed” of the marketplace. How many more bubbles must we endure before we realize that the problem isn't greed and it isn't markets? The problem is government interference.

    http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/...gher-education

    The future in education in fact has to be in privatized for profit Universities. I can concede that for some things like medicine and hard sciences that third party accreditation is probably necessary. But for a lot of other fields people can learn more efficiently through specific for profit entities.

    Mark Cuban has a lot of good to say on the matter too.

    http://blogmaverick.com/2012/05/13/t...any-time-soon/
    Edited By: winwin07 Jun 20th, 2012 at 07:03 AM
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  25.  
    Originally Posted by Lord Supremo View Post

    Name a single industrialized economy in history that persisted without what you would describe as "government intervention."


    Hong Kong post WWII is probably the closest. Pretty sure that England after the Corn Laws were repealed was pretty free market for a time. Post Civil War America was relatively laissez-faire.
     3
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  26.  
    Originally Posted by Dyzalot View Post

    And? Was he getting government sponsorship in the early 80's?

    derp, he's saying he built off of the work of people before him. if you think the conditions for gate's success were possible without the research that preceded it yr delusional (the same with the aircraft industry). nevertheless i think the confluence of corporate and state power is probably the worst thing that has ever happened to humanity.
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  27.  
    Originally Posted by nowapowa View Post

    hahahaha. no silly, Libertarians don't have collective experiences.

    actually everywhere but America, Libertarians are Anarchists...oops. free association 4 lyfe!
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  28. Hong Kong...where the government owns and leases all the land?
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  29.  
    Originally Posted by winwin07 View Post

    University prices are skyrocketing because of government guaranteed loans.

    http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/...gher-education

    The future in education in fact has to be in privatized for profit Universities. I can concede that for some things like medicine and hard sciences that third party accreditation is probably necessary. But for a lot of other fields people can learn more efficiently through specific for profit entities.

    Mark Cuban has a lot of good to say on the matter too.

    http://blogmaverick.com/2012/05/13/t...any-time-soon/

    But they wouldn't have had to make loans if the universities weren't privatized in the first place! One of the greatest public universities in the world used to be free. it has severely lagged in the last 40 years. even The Economist magazine knows why.
    Edited By: nowapowa Jun 20th, 2012 at 07:21 AM
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  30.  
    Originally Posted by nowapowa View Post

    But they wouldn't have had to make loans if the universities were privatized in the first place! One of the greatest public universities in the world used to be free. it has severely lagged in the last 40 years. even The Economist magazine knows why.


    Would be awesome if we could wave a wand and make a valuable commodity suddenly "free."
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