1. I'm on the button, deep in a micro mtt. Villain in SB is a winning reg and CO is also a reg but has been playing spewy.

    Is there an argument for just ripping it in pre against the ~22bb stack and obv hoping the blinds fold?

    Villain in SB hasn't 3b yet (albeit only over micro sample of hands). Can we ever 5bet jam against SB 4b range here and have enough FE? My initial thoughts with the 4b sizing is he had something like A10+, broadway or suited connectors and I was going to jam if he checked it to me. But I bottled it!

    FWIW hate my post flop play, any feedback welcome...............
    Edited By: kingdingaling00 2 Weeks Ago at 12:15 PM
    Add kingdingaling00 to Rail
  2. Won't convert the HH for some reason:

    PokerStars Hand #176083301187: Tournament #2041460066, $5+$5+$1 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XLII (10000/20000) - 2017/09/24 23:44:11 WET [2017/09/24 18:44:11 ET]
    Table '2041460066 231' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
    Seat 1: MavericJO (274506 in chips, $102.94 bounty)
    Seat 2: TheTractor8 (759916 in chips, $50.80 bounty)
    Seat 3: ev76oz (1350829 in chips, $215.23 bounty)
    Seat 4: churrowillia (307622 in chips, $86.91 bounty)
    Seat 5: Naked:D (1131935 in chips, $124.29 bounty)
    Seat 6: Tetipkr (980968 in chips, $139.33 bounty)
    Seat 7: mrmacc63 (633488 in chips, $71.68 bounty)
    Seat 8: Roman-Ml (433453 in chips, $155.02 bounty)
    Seat 9: Blackers111 (778983 in chips, $132.21 bounty)
    MavericJO: posts the ante 3000
    TheTractor8: posts the ante 3000
    ev76oz: posts the ante 3000
    churrowillia: posts the ante 3000
    Naked:D: posts the ante 3000
    Tetipkr: posts the ante 3000
    mrmacc63: posts the ante 3000
    Roman-Ml: posts the ante 3000
    Blackers111: posts the ante 3000
    MavericJO: posts small blind 10000
    TheTractor8: posts big blind 20000
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to Blackers111 [2s 2c]
    ev76oz: folds
    churrowillia: folds
    Naked:D: folds
    Tetipkr: folds
    mrmacc63: folds
    Roman-Ml: raises 26000 to 46000
    Blackers111: raises 78865 to 124865
    MavericJO: folds
    TheTractor8: raises 135135 to 260000
    Roman-Ml: folds
    Blackers111: calls 135135
    *** FLOP *** [3d 4d Tc]
    TheTractor8: checks
    Blackers111: checks
    *** TURN *** [3d 4d Tc] [5s]
    TheTractor8: bets 280000
    Blackers111: calls 280000
    *** RIVER *** [3d 4d Tc 5s] [8s]
    TheTractor8: bets 216916 and is all-in
    Blackers111: folds
    Uncalled bet (216916) returned to TheTractor8
    TheTractor8 collected 1163000 from pot
    TheTractor8: doesn't show hand
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot 1163000 | Rake 0
    Board [3d 4d Tc 5s 8s]
    Seat 1: MavericJO (small blind) folded before Flop
    Seat 2: TheTractor8 (big blind) collected (1163000)
    Seat 3: ev76oz folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 4: churrowillia folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 5: Naked:D folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 6: Tetipkr folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 7: mrmacc63 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 8: Roman-Ml folded before Flop
    Seat 9: Blackers111 (button) folded on the River
    Raise
    Thread StarterAdd kingdingaling00 to Rail
  3.  
    Originally Posted by kingdingaling00 View Post

    FWIW hate my post flop play, any feedback welcome...............

    Actually I hate your preflop play.

    The OR isn't deep enough to set mine against so a call is out. Your initial 3-bet is OK but no better than OK. A ship would be hori-bad as you get the same folds but your best case on the calls is a race and quite often you are crushed and when you find a call in the blinds you are always crushed. In any case I would rather use 72o for this but any 2 cards are fine for a bluff, your cards don't matter at all when you don't want a call.

    The real problem with your pre-flop play is calling the 4-bet. At that point you may actually have enough FE to justify a ship, I don't buy it but it is possible. The correct answer is probably fold, instead you put in about a third of your stack on a set mine getting 5x the call implied => hori-bad play!

    my 2 cents
    Edited By: saukendar 2 Weeks Ago at 02:10 PM
    2
    + 3
    raises
    Raise
    Add saukendar to Rail
  4. Thanks for the feedback. Not really buying the 'just fold pre to the OR' insinuation though. I think the 3b/fold line is best. We're not priced in if OR jams, and a c bet would only need to work ~1/4 to be +ev if he does flat oop. As played, totally agree should have just folded pre to the 4b.
    Raise
    Thread StarterAdd kingdingaling00 to Rail
  5. Out of interest Saukendar, what sort of range would you put SB on here??
    Thread StarterAdd kingdingaling00 to Rail
  6.  
    Originally Posted by kingdingaling00 View Post

    Thanks for the feedback. Not really buying the 'just fold pre to the OR' insinuation though. I think the 3b/fold line is best. We're not priced in if OR jams, and a c bet would only need to work ~1/4 to be +ev if he does flat oop. As played, totally agree should have just folded pre to the 4b.

    I'm not saying folding all the time is correct, I'm also not saying the 3-bet isn't right. It just isn't about your cards, they aren't strong enough to be part of your value range so they are part of your bluffing range. Therefore the question of bluff raise or fold is more about your recent actions/table image/game flow, none of that was in your post, that's why I said this is OK but not better than OK. Not bluffing enough is every bit as bad as bluffing to much after all.

    The potential to get priced into a really bad spot, racing at best & crushed a good part of the time is why I don't like using weak pairs as part my bluffing range. I really prefer 72o or other complete dog-snot here, you never have to face the math that tells you to call off hoping for a flip. That's really mostly a style thing for me.

    The 4-bet is committing, your ship would be about a 2/3 pot raise so he would be getting about 2.5:1 on his call. I'm never folding that after putting in 1/3 of my stack, not about to bet he will either. In a vacuum his value range should be big pairs and AKs for snug players and maybe down to 99+, AKo for looser ones. Because he expects to priced in he'll have a small % of mid-suited connectors and small pairs for whatever the bluff part of his range is if any. His actual ranges are going to depend to some extent on your table image and you didn't give that. This really almost doesn't matter here because our actual holding can't even beat all of his bluffs.

    another 2 cents
    Edited By: saukendar 2 Weeks Ago at 04:34 PM
    2
    + 1
    raise
    Raise
    Add saukendar to Rail
  7. Was co folding to 3 bets a lot? If he was, play seems alright but I don't agree that you are too shallow to set mine and I don't mind just calling in position. Calling 4bet is just spew.
    4
    Add cage to Rail
  8.  
    Originally Posted by cage View Post

    Was co folding to 3 bets a lot? If he was, play seems alright but I don't agree that you are too shallow to set mine and I don't mind just calling in position. Calling 4bet is just spew.

    This. Perfectly said.
     
    1
    Add negrealanu to Rail
  9.  
    Originally Posted by cage View Post

    Was co folding to 3 bets a lot? If he was, play seems alright but I don't agree that you are too shallow to set mine and I don't mind just calling in position. Calling 4bet is just spew.


    Just flatting pre to the OR would be horrendous imo. Just leaves yourself open to being squeezed on (ironically) by the blinds,as there will be a ton of money in the middle.

    Also if both blinds were to just fold, when OR cbets almost every board we're going to have to fold. At least when raising and he calls we should be able to define his range more clearly and should be able to rule out low cards, most suited connectors and he may even fold some small/mid pocket pairs to us. The momentum is now with us and we can profitably make a small cbet on most dry boards successfully. If he jams over the top we can sigh fold, and still have a half decent stack left.

    The only slight argument you could have for just flatting pre is if you have a ton of history and evidenced a balanced range here, but I find at these stakes balancing isn't a major factor in most cases, and you just end of levelling yourself.

    FWIW there isn't a ton of history between us and this was a newish table with only like 20 hands played so far.
    Raise
    Thread StarterAdd kingdingaling00 to Rail
  10.  
    Originally Posted by cage View Post

    Was co folding to 3 bets a lot? If he was, play seems alright but I don't agree that you are too shallow to set mine and I don't mind just calling in position. Calling 4bet is just spew.


    Ummm, I like set mines way more than most players here seem to. Even so the implied odds just aren't good enough to set mine here.

    The OR starts with 433453 and still has 384453 back when the action is to us and the call is 46000 so it's a touch under 8.36x the call implied => far to little to set mine.

    another 2 cents
    Edited By: saukendar 2 Weeks Ago at 02:12 AM
    2
    Raise
    Add saukendar to Rail