1. I was playing in a 100 tourney on UB. 12 players left, 6 at each table, already in the money,but wanted to make the final table. My chip count around 20k. Blinds were 1000/2000. I raised from 2nd position to around 8K, with A4c, just trying to pick up the blinds and antes. The short stack, at about 12K, went all in. Everyone else folded. I thought for a minute...I hadnt seen this player do that with anything other than a pocket pair or an Ace,Big .

    I felt I was dominated by an Ace and a bigger kicker, or a pair, bigger than my 4. Thus, only giving me 3 outs to win, except for the possiblity of the wheel straight. The Pot was 24,200 at this point, with me facing about a 4K call, thus giving me pot odds of 6 to 1. I chose to Fold. Feeling my chances were less than 6 to 1 to win the hand. Also, I felt like preserving my Stack as much as possible for the final table. The other Players at my table said it was a teribble lay down. The All In Player later confirmed that he had AQ.

    My question is: Was this a bad play on my part ?
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  2. yeah i think it was, if you are getting 6 to 1 odds for your call you should take it with just about anything considering about the only thing he could have you worse than 6 to 1 is AA.
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  3. with 3 outs aren't i a 15 to 1 underdog ?
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  4. I think you have to know the stye of player who raised you! how he had played earlyer and so on! sometimes you have to play the odds, but chips kept can win you the tourney also.
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  5. OK p0, there is a whole school of poker theory that talks about pot odds. You had already committed about 6,000 chips and to call the all in would;ve cost you another 3,000 or so. Your stack at the time was about 15,000. So if you call there is 24,000 chips to be had for a 3,000 chip call or about 8 to 1. You have 3 of your bottom cards that can pair up, or maybe his bet was with KK, JJ, 88, so your A could be good if A hits.. say another 3 outs.. You also had a baby straight possibility... another couple of outs.. long shots, but there.. so say 10 outs or 4.5 to 1 to gain 8 to 1... you call. On the other hand, lil is correct to say, save the 3,000 chips for a better position.... but the 24,000 puts you strong to win..
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  6. Thank You, Sophiea, for your thoughts. I guess i just went with my gut, and didn't feel lucky,
    Even though the call could of been ok.
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  7. I did tell you afterwards, when DoubleLucky was berating you, that it was OK to make the laydown. It was one hand, you still had plenty of chips, and protecting your stack was OK. So, you know you are a great player and going with your gut is better than any poker theory.
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  8. I don't have a problem with you laying down there. I think the raise with a/4 offsuit like that, which does pot odd committ you to calling pretty much anything from that short stack is a tad questionable if you're unwilling to even call a raise of another 4k.. but bluffing blinds/antes is a big part of tournament poker.
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  9. i agree with you bud05, i think i overbet my hand , in hindsite...should of only gone 2x blinds or folded
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  10. in a cash game i call. in a tournament, i think u have to factor in survival, also
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  11. so for 4k more you have to get lucky to 28,200. About 30% of the time the outcome is good for you. Yes, I think it was a bad laydown. When you look at players like brsavage, Poker Ho and hopefully me, we don't always get it in with the best of it but we almost always know when not to fold. I think anyone telling you the fold was good is not giving you good advice. Plus you still would have 8k.
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  12. Hey P0lecat, glad to see you here. We've played together quite a bit in the past, and I've seen you have a lot of success for quite a while.

    I personally agree with Beanie here. I understand why you folded--you didn't want to kiss another 4k of your stack goodbye when you were likely facing a dominated situation. But you have to think of the three possible outcomes here.

    If you fold, you are left with 12k, which is about 6x the BB. That's an all-in stack. Any hand you get involved in from here on out, you have to commit.

    If you call and lose, you have an all in stack of about 8k. This will happen 70% of the time you call, but you're stuck with an all in stack every time you fold.

    If you call and win, you have over 35k. By calling, you give yourself an almost 30% chance to have enough chips to really play.

    I'm seeing about 6-1 odds on that pot---you call off 4 k more to get the 24k that's already in there....so you have to call, even if you don't like being in with a dominated hand. The reward of potentially winning the hand is too great.

    Best of luck,

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  13. Thanks Adam and Beanie. i see your point. sometimes you have to play a likely dominated hand because of pot odds.
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  14. hi polecat, i was on the table with you at the time and i have to say that i think that you made the right decision to fold. The reason i say this is nothing to do with pot odds but i was watching both tables at the time and there were 2 stacks at the time with less than 2bb so by folding you had to make the final table. However if winning the tournament is your objective those saying you should have taken a chance are right which is why i called the allin with 88 when i had the other person on overcards. It would have left me 8k if i lost and was a coin flip although i was a slight favourite.

    In other words you have to decide on your objectives. You can play conservatively at this point to move up a few places or you can take a gamble to try and take first. So both plays would have been right depending on what you are trying to achieve
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  15. It is a MUST CALL. If you can't get yourself to make a call like this, don't raise w/crap like A4 in the first place. This will eliminate the need to make this type of decision.
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  16. I was also there at the table, first off we were down to 6 so it was shorthanded, with any two cards a call in a must with pot odds. the thing about wanting to wait out another couple of players, i dont agree with. Why would u not call a 4k raise with a4 into a 23000 pot when the blinds are 3k. It was a terrible play.

    And since when do people play to get 7th in a MMT, all the money is in the top 3 or 4, why would you waist 4 hours to get your money doubled?
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  17. p0, send me your email address so I can give you referral credit at absolute poker. My email is Thanks.
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  18. Thread StarterAdd p0lecat to Rail
  19. Sorry dude but I agree with everyone who said it's a must call. Adam explained it best. Put yourself in position by calling. Big downside passing and huge upside if you get a little lucky.
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  20. today, playing in a sat. I have Ad7d, flop JdJhXd.. Ionic makes a standard bet, raised by seat 5, on button I call, Ionic goes all in... I figure him for the a pocket J, but knowing it is a sat with only 3 places paying out, I call looking for a d draw.. doesn't happen, I'm out.. OK.. but to all who think pot odds are the greatest thing since sliced bread, know that risking all your chips on a draw is just not great poker. Sure, if I hit a lucky card I have a lot of chips, which in a sat. you need, but otherwise playing for a draw is not smart.
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  22. The only question you need to answer at that point is; would you invest 4K to make 24K if you have a 30% chance of being right. Your expected value is 4.4K. This scenario is a LIMIT player's lifeblood.
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  23. In "Championship No-Limit & Pot Limit Hold-Em" TJ Cloutier says, "In tournament poker, pot odds is not the most important factor in deciding to play a hand. It goes out the window a lot of times because you can't go back to your pocket for more chips- and that should be the determining factor in each and every hand. You should take the math into consideration, yes, but if that is all you are thinking about and forget about the fact that if you don't win the pot you will either be out of the tournament or you will take (another) a big hit to your stack, you are putting too much importance on it. Your thinking in critical tournament situations has to be different than how you think in side games." page 134
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  24. Sophiea...I dont think this hand is what TJ had in mind with that statement. There is a very thin line. Sometimes you are faced with a situation where you are pot committed. If you call and lose you will be crippled....but if you call and win you will be a big stack...The times you are forced to call is when you will be a short stack wether you fold and lose right there or call and lose. The times you can throw out pot odds is when you can fold and still have a relatively competitive stack...im really struggling for words on how to explain it as i havent had any sleep in what seems like 296324 hours....if it doesnt make sense im sure someone can explain it for me.
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  25. I dont have a problem with the laydown...what I DO have a problem with is the bet....if youre going to raise...raise to 6k there...standard 3xBB....with an overly aggressive raise of 8k, it LOOKS like your trying to pick up the pot. Plus, when the guy moves in, its much easier to fold now, still leaving you with a respectable 16k (8 BB) It also depends on who was in the blinds..what you should be going after in that situation is the middle stacks. Large stacks dont have to worry, they can call there without risking much...and small stacks are lible to push in with anything decent (and you cant call all your chips with an A-4 offsuit). So if the blinds were on 2 middle stacks, I LOVE trying to pick them up here...if the short stack was the one in the blind, Id fold...If it is appropriate to steal, you bet 3BB and get reraised all in...I dump it.
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  26. since when is 4X the BB overly aggressive? especially with antes in play. Also..it is not MUCH easier to fold...I cant see how you view 2k in this situation as the main deciding factor...you are still getting over 3.5/1 to call...you play to win!..I personally woulda just folded the hand pre flop.
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  27. 2000 is a lot when your stack is only 16k ....an extra blind or two is significant (IMO), but I also would have folded there...unless the middle stacks were in the blinds..then I would have tried to steal almost regardless of what I had.
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  28. It's hardly enough to make up a decision when you are getting great odds to call.
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  29. This is a great point...and a discussion I want to have..I will start a new topic for it called "pot odds"
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  30. I think it's a bad laydown. If you call and lose you have M<5. If you lay it down you have M<5. Now you are all-in next time you play a hand. If you call and win you have the chips to play for the top 3 money spots. I think before making a stealing raise you always have to ask yourself 'what do I do if I raise with this hand and I get pushed by' and answer that with each stack still to play.
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