1. definitely backed when you're getting hustled by your roommates in props every day
    Add johnea6 to Rail
  2. I have always stuck to 100 buyins on AP but they have smaller field sizes and softer mtts. I have never experienced over a 60-70 ABI downswing, but that extra cushion is important. For stars or Tilt where the field size is much bigger/more aggressive I would think that a minimum of 150 ABI's would be mandatory without having to worry about moving down levels. I would lean closer to 200 ABI's because you don't want to have to do what FOUTIGHT did and move down levels when running bad then run good in micros, move back up to mid-high and hit a bad streak again. Just my thoughts.
    Add donkiman to Rail
  3. 50k sounds about right, but you could definitely play well and still have a dowswing of 30+k without it being too unusual.
    Add m_hawk_1 to Rail
    Originally Posted by iPlayTourneys View Post

    @ FOUTIGHT: But do you make a living out of poker? i.e. you have no other way to deposit once you go broke and you have to pay all daily costs like rent/car/phone/i-net/food etc.?

    The BR management you are using now, is doomed for failure if you don't run good and need to cash-out $ to afford your living.

    Its my only income and this brm has worked for last 3years :)

    Originally Posted by donkiman View Post

    ...because you don't want to have to do what FOUTIGHT did and move down levels when running bad then run good in micros, move back up to mid-high and hit a bad streak again. Just my thoughts.

    Why is this so bad?
    Add FouTight to Rail
  5. I've adopted a similar approach to Foutight, though perhaps with a little more discipline, and at slightly lower limits. I am, however, very very new to playing for a living. It's been about 3 months since I've started, and I'm loving it. I know that's fuck all time, but so far it's smooth sailing. I take the time to play, study, and collaborate because I think all are tantamount to continued MTT success. I may be setting myself up for epic failure, but so far grinding midstkes at an ABI of around $20, and a BR of between 5k and 10k is working out very well, and easily gets me enough to live comfortably, save, and slowly build my roll larger. I often use Fox's bankroll management site to check that I'm in line, and it seems to work pretty good.

    I play a schedule mainly on FTP and partially on Stars, and stick to the fields that I know I'm best in. Before I fully quit my job I took apart each of the schedules and marked the styles / formats of various tournaments, and made points to try and decide which would be best and for what reasons and what times. I play from New Zealand so I get a slightly different schedule -- it allows me to play the morning (which is the 'standard schedule' for you guys) and in the evening, which is the AM and tends to typically be a lot softer too. I don't find anywhere near as many regs in the $55's and $33's on FTP and PS respectively at night here for example.

    As for taking shots and such, and moving up the limits, I treat these as 'rewards' for progression and so on, and I take the money directly from the money I pay myself from my roll each week, so that there is a consequence outside of my roll dropping and my variance going sky high. So far I'm mostly staying away from Sunday's, but I'll look to incorporate it a little more in the future -- and there are live events / stuff in the future that my Old Man is going to back me for, so I've got that to look forward to.

    Does this all seem reasonable or do you more established pro's feel that I'm setting myself up for failure in the long term? I'm pretty open to suggestion, so far I've only tried to take all the information I can get together and apply 100% discipline with BR management when I play. I'd also be interested to hear what you think FouTight, as it sounds like you're tackling it in a similar (perhaps a little looser) way and succeeding yourself...?
    Edited By: Odyssey77 Jan 17th, 2011 at 09:34 AM
    Add Odyssey77 to Rail
    Originally Posted by MarkFSU1 View Post

    its just not about what u need to be able to play, it has to be about enough room to handle swings, pay bills/living expenses, and probably most importantly continue to build the roll bigger

    poker is a neverending struggle to win tournaments faster than your scores are eaten up by life
    Edited By: BLUEberLEEZ Jan 17th, 2011 at 10:11 AM
    Add BLUEberLEEZ to Rail
    Originally Posted by BLUEberLEEZ View Post

    poker is a neverending struggle to win tournaments faster than your scores are eaten up by life

    I think this sums it up nicely :-}
    Add racer to Rail
  8. own roll is harsh backing is too fml
    Add donkeytrap26 to Rail
    Originally Posted by johnea6 View Post

    definitely backed when you're getting hustled by your roommates in props every day

    Thread StarterAdd Artie Party to Rail
  10. I keep $20K in there and play $26-$75 bis during the week and a few 30rs. On weekends I'll average about 3-4 $216s. When I go above $20K I'll cash out for life stuff and rent, etc. I've been using this system for the past 2 years and it's worked fine. I'm a student now so I can't really grind a full schedule anyways but if I decide to try the full-time gig I might just let that BR roll up a little higher.
    Add bluejeep85 to Rail
  11. i think my abi is around $55 overall, play some $163, $215s and during wcoop ftops i always put some money to the side for sats and if i qualify for a 1k or 1.5k ill play it, my br is ideally 15-20k on stars 15-20k on ftp and a few more k's on other sites, worst downswing i ever had was about 6k a lil while bback playing mostly $22-$109 tournies with an abi of sumwhere around 40 at the time i think, but if you can lose 6k with an abi of $40 u can easily lose $12k i suppose, i thiink for large field mtts u need over 200bis, and the higher ur playing the more bis u need imo as against better players ur not going to be hitting big scores as much. Personally i like having more because it takes pressure off.
    I would like to be backed for larger buyin live tournies as the fields over here in Ireland for a 1k or 1.5k (euros) are so bad and nice small fields big scores are inevitable after u play enough of them but ofc in the real world (or online poker world) E1.5k is a nice amount of money and until i dont see it as a significant amount to lose i would prefer to be backed to some extent but id never want to be backed for more than 50% of my tourney feel it would demotivate me, basically if u cant afford the swings or dont like dealing with them then go with backing if you are comfortable then play yourself i think.
    Edited By: Burnsey Jan 17th, 2011 at 06:12 PM
    Add Burnsey to Rail
  12. It seems to me like there are several factors that play into OP’s BR management question and that the correct answer varies depending on individual circumstances. For example, the following factors are all very important to determining an appropriate BR for a specific person:

    1. Average Buy-in- pretty self explanatory, the larger your ABI, the more you need

    2. Buy-in Range- two players with the same ABI may need different BRs depending on their buy-in range. For example (ignoring rake for simplicity), someone w/ ABI of $60 playing half $20s and half $100s will need a larger BR than someone playing all $60s because of the possibility of running bad in the higher buy-ins.

    3. Field Size- larger fields obv increase variance and, therefore, require a larger BR. Mixing in small fields such as UB tourneys and PS capped help reduce variance.

    4. Edge Over Field- although your exact EV is essentially impossible to calculate, the less of an edge you have, the larger your swings will be.

    5. Living Situation- if you rely on your BR to make withdraws for life expenses, you need a larger BR than someone whose BR is purely for poker.

    6. Goals- if you are trying to determine what type of BR you need to never go bust while at the same time never moving down, you obviously need a much, much larger BR than someone who is applying a BR mgmt rule of always keeping ABI to a certain % of their BR (i.e. someone who decreases ABI as their roll gets smaller)

    7. Risk Aversion- if you can’t handle the swings associated with MTTs very well, you should stay on the very conservative side of the BR mgmt spectrum. If downswings don’t affect you and/or your play that much, you should still practice good BR mgmt, but can probably be on the more aggressive side of the “good” BR mgmt spectrum.

    By way of example, I play part time and typically play $20-$100 FOs (and $120s on UB), $3r-$30r (including cubes) and a few Sunday $200s. My ABI is somewhere around $60-70 usually but I have a quite large BR range on certain days (e.g. $3r to $200s on Sundays). I estimate that I have a huge edge in tourneys such as $24s, $10rs, etc, have a decent edge in the $50s, $20rs, etc. and have a small edge (if any at all) in $69s, $100s, etc. I have no way of proving this (and my results over a relatively small sample size at some of these levels may indicate otherwise), but that’s what I tell myself anyway. I have a full time job and don’t need my BR for any life expenses (I do use cashouts for larger purchases, etc. but don’t rely on it to pay bills). I am more than willing to move down when my roll gets smaller and am probably somewhere in the middle on the risk aversion spectrum. I also mix in small field tourneys with the medium and large field tourneys. Given my profile, I like to have around 300-400x my ABI. Thus, I feel comfortable playing my current schedule if I have a BR of approx $20k+. That is my FLOOR though, so when I dip under that mark, I drop some of the $200s, $120s, $100s, etc. and my ABI drops to around $40-45. This seems to work well for my profile, but likely wouldn’t work for others. My advice is to use all the advice ITT and find what works for you. GL.
    Edited By: CRUSH41 Jan 18th, 2011 at 03:24 AM
    Add CRUSH41 to Rail
    Originally Posted by andressoprano View Post


    first reasonable response ive seen itt
    Add P0KERDUUDE to Rail
  14. duuuuuuuuudddddddeee

    Originally Posted by andressoprano View Post


    Add sirswish6 to Rail
  15. If you were to eliminate living expenses from the equation and are playing mainly up to $30's with 3-4 $55's per week what is the ideal number? I have a regular job but have an office where I can play online during the work day (brag), so at this point my job is plenty for living expenses. I'd like to continue to improve and see how well i can do at the low/mid stakes level so how much money would I need?
    Add HanoverHero to Rail
    Originally Posted by Odyssey77 View Post

    I'd also be interested to hear what you think FouTight, as it sounds like you're tackling it in a similar (perhaps a little looser) way and succeeding yourself...?

    I think we are pretty much approaching it the same way, but our goals might be different so the end result is different. I left a stable, known, predictable future to take a shot at doing something (in my opinion) amazing which is playing poker for a living.

    I want my poker career to be exciting (and even a bit scary!) so I dont mind taking shots. Maybe your goals with poker are to reduce the variance and reduce the uncertainty that comes with not knowing how much $$ you will make next month (something you counter will regular payments to yourself from your BR). Bottom line is BRM has to be unique and adapted to every poker player.

    Personally, I motivate myself to grind by setting goals and rewards for myself. At first, those goals were making my monthly nut (rent+living expenses) and the reward was proving to myself that I could do it. This was a huge deal for me and I grinded hard to acheive it. These days, my rent/living costs are taken care of many months in advance so my rewards are more fun. Last 2 years the rewards were trips all over the world and im happy to say that I was able to grind hard enough to make all the trips I wanted to! Sometimes the reward is spending 16K during wcoop, losing most of it and grinding small stakes 1week after playing 1Ks.

    For this year, the goal and reward is linked to where I will be living next year. My gf and I are moving to MTL and we are going to buy a condo most likely. The quality and location (downtown or 30min metro ride away from it) is 100% linked to how hard I grind this year ( and how many flips I win at FTs). Every day I wake up and this is what motivates me to play. The risk of living in the ghetto excites me! LOL
    Add FouTight to Rail
  17. Field size is way undervalued when these discussions come up. Playing in 100-200 person fields needs a much smaller roll than someone playing in 1K+ fields.

    Also, need to consider the security factor. When people are comfortable that they have enough roll they will play differently than when they are playing with most of their roll.
    Add doc793 to Rail

Similar Threads