1. Hi all,

    I am a recreational player and just restarted to play some poker again after a long time and want to learn and understand the game better instead of just playing.... This was the first hand that I played in the tourney

    Level I (15/30) - 2017/08/27 17:04:06 CET [2017/08/27 11:04:06 ET]
    Table '2000954050 63' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
    Seat 1: dimkaforever (4984 in chips)
    Seat 2: STEFKEBE1983 (4969 in chips)
    Seat 3: Deyan_Tsanev (4635 in chips)
    Seat 4: LeFaisao (4996 in chips)
    Seat 5: arkit161 (4960 in chips)
    Seat 6: Teetime As (4939 in chips)
    Seat 7: Prosperous4 (5260 in chips)
    Seat 8: Sasha_Kr87 (4984 in chips)
    Seat 9: Vladimirnml (5277 in chips)
    dimkaforever: posts the ante 4
    STEFKEBE1983: posts the ante 4
    Deyan_Tsanev: posts the ante 4
    LeFaisao: posts the ante 4
    arkit161: posts the ante 4
    Teetime As: posts the ante 4
    Prosperous4: posts the ante 4
    Sasha_Kr87: posts the ante 4
    Vladimirnml: posts the ante 4
    Prosperous4: posts small blind 15
    Sasha_Kr87: posts big blind 30
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to STEFKEBE1983 [Qd Qc]
    Vladimirnml: folds
    dimkaforever: folds
    STEFKEBE1983: raises 60 to 90
    Deyan_Tsanev: folds
    LeFaisao: folds
    arkit161: folds
    Teetime As: folds
    Prosperous4: folds
    Sasha_Kr87: raises 330 to 420
    STEFKEBE1983: calls 330
    *** FLOP *** [10d 4c 9h]
    Sasha_Kr87: bets 499
    STEFKEBE1983: calls 499
    *** TURN *** [10d 4c 9h] [2c]
    Sasha_Kr87: bets 1455

    I have following questions:

    1° Preflop: should I 4 bet instead of just call his 3 bet? What if 5 bets? No reads as almost first hand...
    2° Postflop: how do you proceed on flop and turn if you would have called like me?

    Thanks!
    Add 1983STEKKE to Rail
  2. What is the buy in amount for this tourney?
    Add mikewebb68 to Rail
  3. Over all your line looks OK to me up to the turn. I can make good arguments for 4-betting and flatting pre, either one is fine. These days the flat in position vs. a BB 3-bet seems to play a bit better for me. Even so I 4-bet some of my big pairs to balance my light 4-bets & flat some to balance my floats, maybe split about 50-50.

    In tournament play I'm never calling this turn open. Sure he can have AA/KK but we are ahead of his range and the board now has a flush & 2 str8 draws, also I'm looking to be getting stacks in, now or on the river, if possible.

    On the as-played line I'm raising this turn 100%, making it about 1250 to go. If he folds all well & good, if he ships we get an easy call at a bit over 2:1, if he calls the pot is just under 3.4K and the effective stacks are just under 3.3K - an easy ship.

    my 2 cents
    Edited By: saukendar Aug 30th, 2017 at 05:02 AM
    2
    + 1
    raise
    Raise
    Add saukendar to Rail
  4. The buy in for the tourney was 7 dollars.

    The reason I posted this is because I do raise his bet on the turn (I ship it) he calls and has AA
    Edited By: 1983STEKKE Aug 30th, 2017 at 05:50 AM
    Thread StarterAdd 1983STEKKE to Rail
  5.  
    Originally Posted by 1983STEKKE View Post

    The buy in for the tourney was 7 dollars.

    The reason I posted this is because I do raise his bet on the turn (I ship it) he calls and has AA


    Yup, the reason about why I asked about the buy in level is that, at lower levels, I find that randoms are less likely to 3 bet so large and then barrel away like villain did without a hand, especially in the early stages of an MTT.
    Raise
    Add mikewebb68 to Rail
  6. Any suggestions on how to adapt against random at this buy in and stage? Call to set mine and fold after turn bet? Even on low board like this? Or preflop 4 bet and fold if he jams?

    Or is line that I took as such ok?
    Edited By: 1983STEKKE Aug 30th, 2017 at 02:59 PM
    Raise
    Thread StarterAdd 1983STEKKE to Rail
  7. I doubt I would be able to get away from this hand unless the guy was a complete nit and had really tight 3 betting stats over a decent sample.

    I also flat here sometime (mainly because you are so deep) because it is easier to get away from a Ace or King high flop to lots of action.

    As he is 3 betting you in UTG+2/ MP1, his range from the BB is tighter than if he was 3 betting you late position. Standard c-bet doesn´t change his range, although his turn bet does.....99´s 10´s KK AA all beat you, you only beat JJ´s/ 87s type draws & bluffs. So, although I would find it impossible to fold, unless he was a complete aggro who would barrel with overcards and who would 3 bet you EP with qjs, you do look beat to me.
    Edited By: samj123 Sep 6th, 2017 at 02:43 PM
    4
    Raise
    Add samj123 to Rail
  8.  
    Originally Posted by saukendar View Post

    Sure he can have AA/KK but we are ahead of his range and the board now has a flush & 2 str8 draws

    His 3 betting range is key to this hand. Out of interest, what is a "standard" 3 betting range from the BB vs UTG+2 "standard" opening range?

    Because I would have trouble worrying about straight draws, he might have 87s but QJs? I wouldn´t be concerned by the flush on the turn either?

    In my mind these draws wouldn´t come into play too much, so opponents range becomes much tighter to me.

    And what would opponent think my calling 3 bet range to be 88´s + KQs AJs+ 910s 87s - doubt I would be bluffing on that run out too often so deep stacked vs that range.

    Am I being too nitty or missing the point somewhere!?
    Edited By: samj123 Sep 6th, 2017 at 02:45 PM
    4
    + 1
    raise
    Raise
    Add samj123 to Rail
  9.  
    Originally Posted by samj123 View Post

    His 3 betting range is key to this hand. Out of interest, what is a "standard" 3 betting range from the BB vs UTG+2 "standard" opening range?

    Because I would have trouble worrying about straight draws, he might have 87s but QJs? I wouldn´t be concerned by the flush on the turn either?

    In my mind these draws wouldn´t come into play too much, so opponents range becomes much tighter to me.

    And what would opponent think my calling 3 bet range to be 88´s + KQs AJs+ 910s 87s - doubt I would be bluffing on that run out too often so deep stacked vs that range.

    Am I being too nitty or missing the point somewhere!?


    BB 3-bet - sure he can have a big pair but there are lots more ways he has 2 big cards. Also I wouldn't discount any suited connectors down to about 76 as part of his 3-bet balance hands, not played every time to be sure, but you do certainly see them in these spots.

    On the flop his c-bet is fairly standard and his 3-bet range hits this flop in lots of ways that make 2 overs or pair + gut-shot and or back door. Sure he can still have a bigger pair or have hit a set but what of that? In any case folding QQ on this flop has to be way -EV.

    Comes the turn and the 2c rolls off. I agree the a 53 is unlikely but you do sometimes see unlikely plays. Still I'm more interested in it being a club than a 2 as that adds lots of equity to the club back-doors. As I said in my original post, on the turn, with these effective stacks, I'm making a commiting raise. If he has me beat so be it, if he commits and makes his draw "that's poker" :) But I expect to be ahead on a good % of the commits and to pick it right there maybe as much as a 1/3 of the time. If we are picking it up 1/3 of the time that makes the play EV+ all by itself.

    another 2 cents
    Edited By: saukendar Sep 7th, 2017 at 02:06 PM
    2
    + 1
    raise
    Raise
    Add saukendar to Rail
  10.  
    Originally Posted by 1983STEKKE View Post

    The buy in for the tourney was 7 dollars.

    The reason I posted this is because I do raise his bet on the turn (I ship it) he calls and has AA


    I kind of assumed you posted it because you ended up toast :)

    I don't like the ship, it's way to big an overbet. You essentially guarantee you only get action when you are beat.

    I very much prefer the committing raise. It's isn't going to effect the outcome in this instance but in the general case it's enough to offer most of the draws the wrong odds and has much better expectations overall.

    yet another 2 cents
    2
    + 1
    raise
    Raise
    Add saukendar to Rail
  11. On this buy in 3 bet ranges in early stages are indeed thighter...but on the other hand I also often see guys betting AK multiple times as they cannot accept they missed the board (and not considering that my range is also quite strong). And draws cannot be excluded...

    So I did not have the greatest feeling about it but folding qq seemed indeed EV negative

    On the overbet: Figured that on this buy in I will also get action from draws in this situation, even if I overbet. But do take the feedback on the overbet, stg I will keep an eye on to make sure that my bets do not have as a consequence I will only receive action from the part of his range that has me crushed.
    Edited By: 1983STEKKE Sep 8th, 2017 at 11:48 AM
    Raise
    Thread StarterAdd 1983STEKKE to Rail
  12. I am not even sure if I would of got to the flop with QQ folding after being 3 bet seemed like a solid option.
     
    Add kevmode to Rail
  13.  
    Originally Posted by kevmode View Post

    I am not even sure if I would of got to the flop with QQ folding after being 3 bet seemed like a solid option.


    OMG WHAT??????

    What are you using for a 3-bet range? AA/KK only?
    2
    Add saukendar to Rail
  14.  
    Originally Posted by samj123 View Post

    His 3 betting range is key to this hand. Out of interest, what is a "standard" 3 betting range from the BB vs UTG+2 "standard" opening range?

    Because I would have trouble worrying about straight draws, he might have 87s but QJs? I wouldn´t be concerned by the flush on the turn either?

    In my mind these draws wouldn´t come into play too much, so opponents range becomes much tighter to me.

    And what would opponent think my calling 3 bet range to be 88´s + KQs AJs+ 910s 87s - doubt I would be bluffing on that run out too often so deep stacked vs that range.

    Am I being too nitty or missing the point somewhere!?

    If we are opening a 12% range (77+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,ATo+,KJo+) and he 3-bets a 7% range (88+,ATs+,KTs+,QJs,AQo+) then our actual holding would leave us looking at ~62% EQ:

    equity win tie pots won pots tied
    Hand 0: 62.364% 61.50% 00.86% 511791120 7192482.00 { QQ }
    Hand 1: 37.636% 36.77% 00.86% 306003660 7192482.00 { 88+, ATs+, KTs+, QJs, AQo+ }


    Even if we assume he 3-bet a top 5% range (99+,AJs+,KQs,AKo) we are still around 57% EQ:

    equity win tie pots won pots tied
    Hand 0: 57.586% 56.48% 01.11% 319138692 6256488.00 { QQ }
    Hand 1: 42.414% 41.31% 01.11% 233408652 6256488.00 { 99+, AJs+, KQs, AKo }

    even a 3.5% range (TT+,AK) gives us 52% EQ:

    equity win tie pots won pots tied
    Hand 0: 52.371% 50.99% 01.38% 214798848 5801790.00 { QQ }
    Hand 1: 47.629% 46.25% 01.38% 194824356 5801790.00 { TT+, AKs, AKo }

    I'm not sure I've ever seen a "standard" BB 3-bet range but unless I have specific history to say he's a hard rock, I can't see him playing tight enough that we don't have go with this.

    Also while only the 7% range has the QJ all the ranges have considerable suited broadway so club draw can definitely add EQ to his holding.

    another 2 cents
    Edited By: saukendar 3 Weeks Ago at 10:03 PM
    2
    + 1
    raise
    Raise
    Add saukendar to Rail
  15.  
    Originally Posted by saukendar View Post

    OMG WHAT??????

    What are you using for a 3-bet range? AA/KK only?

    I don't like gambling an the early lvls of mtts I don't like this spot so folding and only losing 90 chips is very nitty but it is what I would do. I am losing only 90 chips instead of possibly my whole stack. Say I call the 3bet and he bar ells into me every street I won't be sure if he has AK , JJ or a bluff or KK, AA. I have folded QQ before it isn't that big a deal I have even folding KK before. Losing players call winning players are capable of folding a hand and even if he did he have a hand like 99 losing 90 chips is nothing to worry about. The guy also 3bet big with a 420 raise instead of 270 or 300 so you are playing a big pot while guessing where you are at in the hand? Doesn't seem like a strategy I like to use I don't like to be the one guessing in the hand. To me there is more value in being cautious in the early stages of an mtt I would rather be nitty than punt off a stack in a spot that could be avoided.
     
    + 1
    raise
    Raise
    Add kevmode to Rail
  16.  
    Originally Posted by kevmode View Post

    I don't like gambling an the early lvls of mtts I don't like this spot so folding and only losing 90 chips is very nitty but it is what I would do. I am losing only 90 chips instead of possibly my whole stack. Say I call the 3bet and he bar ells into me every street I won't be sure if he has AK , JJ or a bluff or KK, AA. I have folded QQ before it isn't that big a deal I have even folding KK before. Losing players call winning players are capable of folding a hand and even if he did he have a hand like 99 losing 90 chips is nothing to worry about. The guy also 3bet big with a 420 raise instead of 270 or 300 so you are playing a big pot while guessing where you are at in the hand? Doesn't seem like a strategy I like to use I don't like to be the one guessing in the hand. To me there is more value in being cautious in the early stages of an mtt I would rather be nitty than punt off a stack in a spot that could be avoided.

    Well and good, I'm never folding QQ pre to a 3-bet out of the blinds. We have position and are far ahead of any reasonable 3-bet range, folding is just way to exploitable for my taste.

    I raise lots of hands, some strong some weak and so far I get enough through to come out +EV regardless of the folds I have to make. I do fold a good % of them to 3-bets, but I don't use the top of my range for for the fold to 3-bet part, that's what 53, 64 or other dog-snot is for. Possibly this a matter of style as I play a fairly wide open preflop game so I expect to get 3-bet fairly often as such things go.

    In any case I knocked out some ranges in a post above, thoughts?
    Edited By: saukendar 3 Weeks Ago at 02:31 AM
    2
    + 1
    raise
    Raise
    Add saukendar to Rail
  17. My nagging thought on those looser 3 bet ranges is that these guys are 165bb deep & I don´t usually see many guys 3 bet an UTG+2 from the BB with 88´s, QJs, 87s or A10s. There is not much to be gained from it when the blinds are so low. I would be considering in this instance the tighter 5-6% range unless of course I had the read this guy was LAG.

    Preflop: I´m always calling, as you said even vs a tight 3 betting range, we still have lots of equity.

    Postflop - The opponent 3 bets and gets called, c-bets and gets called. I may barrel the turn with overcards but generally I would be firing once and giving up in a 3bet pot where the hero´s range becomes tighter after calling twice. So, unless I have the read that the opponent is aggro, generally I would be discounting the kqs and AJs+ from his range on the turn & using a tighter 3bet % that leaves the 99´s +. Which of course more often than not leaves us beat.

    PLUS: if the opponent is thinking about my calling 3bet range, surely he is not barrelling as a bluff too often on that run out.

    Maybe too nitty. And perhaps I´m not giving these guys enough credit for how wide they "should" be 3 betting. In game I´m calling away.

    This will be a good hand for flopzilla & for looking through my database to see how often I get stacked or not in these situations.
    Edited By: samj123 3 Weeks Ago at 10:10 AM
    4
    + 2
    raises
    Raise
    Add samj123 to Rail
  18.  
    Originally Posted by samj123 View Post

    My nagging thought on those looser 3 bet ranges is that these guys are 165bb deep & I don´t usually see many guys 3 bet an UTG+2 from the BB with 88´s, QJs, 87s or A10s.

    Haha, so true. This is why I just late register everything and don't play poker this deepstack. That way I don't level myself in these situations. If I want to play 165bb poker, I'll just play cash.

    But in all seriousness. I think this is the epitome of too strong to fold, but don't feel great about it. Accept that villain does have AK, JJ and one combo of AQ(clubs) in his range so our call is basically breakeven against AA/KK/TT.
     
    1
    + 1
    raise
    Raise
    Add negrealanu to Rail
  19. I like the responses obviously not many players are going to fold QQ there. I was just saying my thinking process as to why I would fold because I think the range would be a 1010+AQs plus for your standard regular of the mill $11 avg buy in player online. More laggy players obviously you would call preflop and see the flop and than you can see the how the board is and what the opponent bets or if he might check. If you decide to call it can get dicey if he bets the pot into you and the board is safe 257 or something of that nature. You are going to probably stack off and hope he doesn't have you beat and has a lower pair or overcards.
     
    Raise
    Add kevmode to Rail
  20.  
    Originally Posted by kevmode View Post

    I like the responses obviously not many players are going to fold QQ there. I was just saying my thinking process as to why I would fold because I think the range would be a 1010+AQs plus for your standard regular of the mill $11 avg buy in player online. More laggy players obviously you would call preflop and see the flop and than you can see the how the board is and what the opponent bets or if he might check. If you decide to call it can get dicey if he bets the pot into you and the board is safe 257 or something of that nature. You are going to probably stack off and hope he doesn't have you beat and has a lower pair or overcards.

    We are still ahead of a TT+, AQs+ 3-bet range. 51% isn't much it's true, but we are ahead and in position and both of those have value.

    equity win tie pots won pots tied
    Hand 0: 48.466% 46.69% 01.78% 148687920 5669208.00 { TT+, AQs+ }
    Hand 1: 51.534% 49.75% 01.78% 158462208 5669208.00 { QQ }

    Sure it can get dicey if he bets into us, it is true we are likely to have to act on future streets without a lock. How is that different form most hands we play? I don't recall the last time I held the stone cold nutz in a hand.
    Edited By: saukendar 2 Weeks Ago at 11:42 PM
    2
    + 1
    raise
    Raise
    Add saukendar to Rail
  21.  
    Originally Posted by saukendar View Post


    On the as-played line I'm raising this turn 100%, making it about 1250 to go. If he folds all well & good, if he ships we get an easy call at a bit over 2:1, if he calls the pot is just under 3.4K and the effective stacks are just under 3.3K - an easy ship.

    Am I being thick, but didn't V lead turn for 1455, meaning if you were to raise it would have to be at least 1455 more?

    To call it would mean each would have 2374 in the middle, and to min raise it would be 3829, so surely there's no real difference here in min raising and shipping with starting stacks of 4900? Is shipping not the same as a committing raise here?

    Or was OP supposed to put that V bets 455 on turn?
    7
    Raise
    Add luckylaidee to Rail
  22.  
    Originally Posted by luckylaidee View Post

    Am I being thick, but didn't V lead turn for 1455, meaning if you were to raise it would have to be at least 1455 more?

    To call it would mean each would have 2374 in the middle, and to min raise it would be 3829, so surely there's no real difference here in min raising and shipping with starting stacks of 4900? Is shipping not the same as a committing raise here?

    Or was OP supposed to put that V bets 455 on turn?

    That was supposed to be "On the as-played line I'm raising this flop 100%"...

    Thanks for catching that :)
    Edited By: saukendar 2 Weeks Ago at 05:34 AM
    2
    Add saukendar to Rail