1. This is my luck, did i just not bet enough on turn?

    Game #752006614 - Tournament Hammock - 100/200 No Limit Texas Hold'em -
    2005/03/17-13:14:04.2 (CST)
    Table "Hammock 9" (MTT) -- Seat 2 is the button
    Seat 1: Footballman7 (8,335 in chips)
    Seat 2: russruss (700 in chips)
    Seat 3: grooo (7,635 in chips)
    Seat 4: Leepol (16,665 in chips)
    Seat 5: DongWon (3,940 in chips)
    Seat 6: chas758 (6,020 in chips)
    Seat 8: miller842 (3,500 in chips)
    Seat 9: bushwacker00 (7,367 in chips)
    Seat 10: DJDaveCee (9,385 in chips)
    russruss: Ante (25)
    grooo : Ante (25)
    Leepol : Ante (25)
    DongWon : Ante (25)
    chas758 : Ante (25)
    miller842: Ante (25)
    bushwacker00: Ante (25)
    DJDaveCee: Ante (25)
    Footballman7: Ante (25)
    grooo : Post Small Blind (100)
    Leepol : Post Big Blind (200)
    Dealt to Footballman7 [ Ad ]
    Dealt to Footballman7 [ Ah ]
    DongWon : Fold
    chas758 : Call (200)
    miller842: Fold
    bushwacker00: Fold
    DJDaveCee: Raise (550)
    Footballman7: Raise (1,000)
    russruss: Fold
    grooo : Fold
    Leepol : Fold
    chas758 : Fold
    DJDaveCee: Call (450)
    *** FLOP *** : [ Js Ac 6d ]
    DJDaveCee: Check
    Footballman7: Check
    *** TURN *** : [ Js Ac 6d ] [ 8d ]
    DJDaveCee: Bet (360)
    Footballman7: Raise (1,000)
    DJDaveCee: Call (640)
    *** RIVER *** : [ Js Ac 6d 8d ] [ Ts ]
    DJDaveCee: Bet (1,000)
    Footballman7: Raise (2,800)
    DJDaveCee: Raise (3,600)
    Footballman7: Call (1,800)
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Pot: 13,925 | Board: [ Js Ac 6d 8d Ts ]
    Footballman7 lost 6,625 (showed hand) [ Ad Ah ] (three of a kind,
    russruss lost 25 (folded)
    grooo lost 125 (folded)
    Leepol lost 225 (folded)
    DongWon lost 25 (folded)
    chas758 lost 225 (folded)
    miller842 lost 25 (folded)
    bushwacker00 lost 25 (folded)
    DJDaveCee bet 6,625, collected 13,925, net +7,300 (showed hand) [ Kd
    Qd ] (a straight, ten to ace)
    Add Footballman77 to Rail
  2. There isn't much else you could've done except maybe a big bet on the flop would've made him decide not to chase his straight. Once a person decides to chase something, it's pretty hard to get rid of them no matter what price you put up. An all-in might've got him out of the pot after the turn, but he might've called since he invested so much and just hoped to suck out like he did.

    Not much you can do against those persistent chasers.
    Add randumb to Rail
  3. Ok, thats what i was thinking, just wondering if anyone woulda played this differently and how. Supposively this guy is a decent player but i do not take that as a decent play calling my reraise pre flop with QK, then callin my reraise of his bet on the turn on the hope of hitting his 4 outer.
    Thread StarterAdd Footballman77 to Rail
  4. I think you should have raised more on the turn to take him off of that lame inside draw. You had at least 2k in the pot preflop but the turn bet is 365 and then raised to 1k only. I would have raised at least the pot unless your intention was to get him to call your raise. If that was the intent then you can't complain about the end result.
    Add scout0112 to Rail
  5. He is a good player, but that is a tough beat. The problem is this: you must recognize that the reason people stay in when they're behind is that there's a chance to win. If you want people to stay in when you are ahead and you purposely make bets that will keep them in, then you need to be able to deal with the possibility of losing the hand. I'm not saying your play was a bad play by any means. You tried to extract as many chips out of a heavy favorite as possible. You were over 90% to win the hand on the turn, so losing on the river is a tough loss. Just the same, it's an expected result some of the time when you play the hand as you did. It's simply higher risk to keep people in than it is to bet them out, but often with more reward. I dont know how you could have gotten away from it on the river--thats the brilliance of going after a gutshot draw (if drawing for the stone nuts) in NL. When you hit, nobody ever thinks you have it. Both of you took a chance, and his ended up paying off big this time.
    Add Adam to Rail
  6. good analysis Adam....I think your raise pre-flop was too small, and a raise like that screams strenght.......but probably the place where you didn't bet nearly as a strong enough is the turn, you have to be agressive here, a 2nd diamond hit.

    I'm not crazy about the notion of extracting more chips.......alot of good players feast off of guys who slowplay too much. Look at the way the Ho plays, if you give him the right price he will suck out on you all day....if you read his article he plays premium hands Very aggresssively...he doesn't let people have the right price to draw at anything.

    good luck,
    Add browerkid to Rail
  7. I would have bet more agrressively pre-flop. Might have been happy with taking down the pot right then. Tough beat though, but I always push very hard with AA preflop, the old rather take down a small one than lose a big one theory.
    Add Generaly to Rail
  8. Thanks for the responses guys, guess i shoulda been more agressive on the turn, but thought that him calling my reraise preflop, then my reraise on turn was a rookie mistake that makes it tuff for me to give him credit of being a good player
    Thread StarterAdd Footballman77 to Rail
  9. I don't know that I would have bet more aggressively pre. You want to isolate against one person with AA. Gotta push the whole stack in on the turn. Or most of it at least. DJ would fold if that were the case, but you're giving him about 5 to 1 on a call into a big pot with good implied odds, meaning, he knows if he hits he's going to get most if not all of your chips.

    I like your play right up to the turn. Then you should have turned the heat up.

    My motto: Win the turn or lose the river.
    Add pnkranger to Rail
  10. ur probally right, shoulda thrown a big bet on the turn, but i still thought my raise shoulda been sufficient to scare even a decent, let alone a good player, away from a 4 outer, but thats why im still learning, ill definitly play more agressive next time
    Thread StarterAdd Footballman77 to Rail
  11. If you look at his play from his perspective it was pretty reasonable all the way.

    Pre-flop: He is one off the button with one limper in front and makes a raise of 2.5 times the big blind with KQ. You raise to 1000 (5 times the BB).

    He has to pay 450 more to see the flop and there is already 2275 in the pot - so he is getting 5 to 1 odds to make the call.

    Flop: You give him a free card
    Turn: He puts out a probe bet of 360 to see what is out there (you could have a smaller pair and be afraid of the ace) and you raise to 1000

    Now he is facing a call of 640 with 3635 in the pot or about 5.7 to 1 odds. He might even think that a K or Q are outs for him as well at this point and his implied odds if he hits the straight make this a decent call.

    River: He hit his straight and got 3600 more from you. So if we look at the "implied odds" in retrospect on the turn, he paid 640 for a chance at over 7200 - I like those odds, and I like his play on this hand.

    From your perspective: I like your pre-flop raise. You isolated yourself against one person which is exactly what you want to do with a big pair. Personally I don't like giving the free card on the flop, but it has become a pretty standard move for a lot of people with a set. I think your real mistake was the size of your bet on the turn, you priced him in for the call. There was 2635 in the pot and you only bet 38% of the pot. You make this bet 2000 (75% of the pot) and his pot odds are only 2.8 to 1 to call and even with the implied odds his gutshot draw isn't justified. If he calls this (which I am not sure he would have) he would be making a mistake. You want to put them in a position where they are making a mistake to call and at no point in this hand did you do that.
    Add JD Roark to Rail
  12. He caught a flush draw on the turn. Your check on the flop gave him 12 outs. 4 to 1 shot with 5+ to 1 pot odds.
    Add pnkranger to Rail
  13. Thanks, I missed the flush draw, no four color deck in the hand histories! :) Makes the call on the turn a no brainer.
    Add JD Roark to Rail
  14. Thanks for all the responses, it looks like bottom line here, whether i checked the flop or not, shoulda put a much bigger bet on the turn to make it an even worse call for him. If u see me at a table, and i raise a pot sized bet on turn, know i have a set of A's :)
    Thread StarterAdd Footballman77 to Rail
  15. Wow, JD really broke that down well. Your checking the flop is why you lost the hand. People check sets on the flop all the time and then are amazed at how they lose at the river. Your bet on the turn screams steal in big letters. Now i will do the same thing tonight and complain later.
    Add 2 cents to Rail

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