1. https://www.boomplayer.com/24852228_6D1FE2F9E3

    I don't really know if i could have folded on the flop. What advice can you give me
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  2. sounds like you have no knowledge of the player in the sb. I know that he smashed a massive half stack raise on you. I know I personally would feel like I'm behind in this hand but how do we fold 10bb since we now are so invested. As played with 10 bb left im calling, he ended up being a favorite with 15 outs. Its ok to fold and see more hands next orbit as well , so we can shove and rip blinds and or double up
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  3. I'd be inclined to jam this preflop with your stack size, don't think calling is necessarily bad though, I'd just see it as a good stealing opportunity against a lot of sb opens; as played I'd never fold the flop.
    Edited By: cage Aug 10th, 2017 at 03:56 PM
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  4. I'd find it difficult to fold with this stack size with TP although a check then shove would make me feel that I'm against a draw with at least one over card & therefore decent equity. I'm sure he doesn't have TP better kicker because on a wet board he would have bet and not checked.

    I'm not sure about that third pot bet though unless you were planning to shove a non heart/straight draw turn. But then saying that I'm not sure what would have been better?

    Does anyone have more optimal lines? I often get stuck betting with this stack size with a hand that is likely to give me grief with many turn cards.
    Edited By: samj123 Aug 10th, 2017 at 04:36 PM
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  5. I don't see any issues here preflop. You could ship preflop some of the time but J7 is way at the bottom of the range for that given the stack sizes as you'll get action a good % of the time. Flatting pre and preserving the value of position is fine. Over all I say about 20% ship to 80% flat is about right.

    Once the flop comes it's all getting in the middle but you can't know that. You have to make your play only guessing his ranges.

    Your bet size on the flop is right at 1/3 pot or as bad a size as you could have chosen on this board. You are offering him 4:1 to call in a spot where he can have 10 to 12 effective out LOTS of ways so he could peel 1 at the right price for 1 card, and he has a stack to be able to afford that. On this board you have to bet ~60% pot at a minimum, but as that will make a pot bigger than your remaining stack, shipping the flop is the only correct play.

    my 2 cents
    Edited By: saukendar Aug 10th, 2017 at 04:51 PM
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  6.  
    Originally Posted by saukendar View Post

    Your bet size on the flop is right at 1/3 pot or as bad a size as you could have chosen on this board.[/U] You are offering him 4:1 to call in a spot where he can have 10 to 12 effective out LOTS of ways so he could peel 1 at the right price for 1 card, and he has a stack to be able to afford that. On this board you have to bet ~60% pot at a minimum, but as that will make a pot bigger than your remaining stack, shipping the flop is the only correct play.

    I was thinking that in game I would have jammed flop but wondered whether I was being too clumsy, so thank you for the clear rationale.
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  7.  
    Originally Posted by saukendar View Post

    I don't see any issues here preflop. You could ship preflop some of the time but J7 is way at the bottom of the range for that given the stack sizes as you'll get action a good % of the time. Flatting pre and preserving the value of position is fine. Over all I say about 20% ship to 80% flat is about right.

    I would be shipping this preflop more than that, against a SB who had a decent steal rate. You should still have a decent amount of fold equity to make this +EV. I'm not at home so I can't look at the maths though.
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  8.  
    Originally Posted by samj123 View Post

    I would be shipping this preflop more than that, against a SB who had a decent steal rate. You should still have a decent amount of fold equity to make this +EV. I'm not at home so I can't look at the maths though.

    If we had better than J7 I would agree but a ship will make the pot 30630 and the call would be 20798 or almost exactly 3:2. Put another way our ship offers the right price for any 2 live cards to call, so we should expect to have little or no FE on a ship. We still have to do it sometimes even if we expect to get called & have to show dog-snot - advertizing has value too :) The call leaves us a 2x pot stack and maintains the value of our position. I'm sticking with 20% ship to 80% flat being about right.

    another 2 cents
    Edited By: saukendar Aug 10th, 2017 at 07:44 PM
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  9.  
    Originally Posted by liepisco View Post

    https://www.boomplayer.com/24852228_6D1FE2F9E3

    I don't really know if i could have folded on the flop. What advice can you give me


    Why would you want to fold? I'm never folding there as played and tbh I'd probably play the hand much the same. The guy raising small in SB sends alarm bells off ringing, though...unless you are folding to steals in bb with really high freq or it's some kind of bubble situation. They ought to be jamming such a wide range here and raise folding virtually nothing. So when they raise small rather than jamming it tells me villain very possibly wants action (unless you're a total nit & they know it, but given you did call this doesn't seem likely).

    That's why I'd not jam pre, and would probably play it much the same way as you have here. Bad luck I can't see the problem though you got it in fairly decently considering.
     
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  10.  
    Originally Posted by saukendar View Post

    Your bet size on the flop is right at 1/3 pot or as bad a size as you could have chosen on this board.


    That sizing looks closer to 40% than to 30% from here. I think the sizing is fine, if we over bet jam I can't see what we are getting called by that we're beating. I'd rather give villain the chance to check shove draws and maybe even midpairs. With the sizing in the hand here villain needs like 37% to call, I don't think villain has this with one over only.

    Perhaps you're right though jamming might look weaker/semi bluffy and get more calls than I'm giving credit. I don't think I'd be jamming here myself though.
     
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  11.  
    Originally Posted by CheapTorque View Post

    That sizing looks closer to 40% than to 30% from here. I think the sizing is fine, if we over bet jam I can't see what we are getting called by that we're beating. I'd rather give villain the chance to check shove draws and maybe even midpairs. With the sizing in the hand here villain needs like 37% to call, I don't think villain has this with one over only.

    Perhaps you're right though jamming might look weaker/semi bluffy and get more calls than I'm giving credit. I don't think I'd be jamming here myself though.

    LOL 1/3 pot is 33% not 30% and yes the bet is actually 36% not 33%. That's enough to offer bad odds to a 9 out draw. But on this board with 2 str8 draws and the flush draw you have to bet around 2/3 pot is offer bad odds to peel 1 card, that's just how the math works on the assumption that they have 10 to 12 effective outs (likely on this board). I never want to offer the correct odds to call my bet and the bet made here can't help offer the villain the correct odds. I'm sticking with as bad a sizing as you could choose.

    As a 2/3 pot bet would make a pot bigger than our remaining stack I'm never doing that. It's not about the look of the play, only the position we're in if the hand continues. If our villain flats we have a pot about 24K and 13K or so back, if he ships back we're looking at about 38K in and calling off that 13K. In essence we have created a spot where any of the draws can force us to call at the correct odds for their hand. I'm never doing that either.

    This spot is all about the choices we will have if the hand continues and that leaves only open ship as a good choice.

    another 2 cents
    Edited By: saukendar Aug 12th, 2017 at 06:58 PM
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  12.  
    Originally Posted by CheapTorque View Post

    Why would you want to fold? I'm never folding there as played and tbh I'd probably play the hand much the same. The guy raising small in SB sends alarm bells off ringing, though...unless you are folding to steals in bb with really high freq or it's some kind of bubble situation. They ought to be jamming such a wide range here and raise folding virtually nothing. So when they raise small rather than jamming it tells me villain very possibly wants action (unless you're a total nit & they know it, but given you did call this doesn't seem likely).

    .

    I've just looked at the stack sizes again, he had less BB's than I originally thought so I agree he should be shoving most of his range and the 2 and a bit raise does look trappy. So my question is - with that stack size and a suspicious sizing, why call at all? Why not fold and save chips for fold equity?

    At what stack size should fold equity become more important than calling for pot odds?
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  13. I do agree!
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