1. so this happened the other night..

    PokerStars Hand #176549861150: Tournament #2054483087, $24.55+$2.45 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XXII (1000/2000) - 2017/10/06 0:50:11 ET
    Table '2054483087 2' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
    Seat 1: matt13lolol (81513 in chips)
    Seat 2: FrankTaylor3 (299803 in chips)
    Seat 3: alexkopter (70226 in chips)
    Seat 4: sydens (155257 in chips)
    Seat 5: shogunM (270295 in chips)
    Seat 6: domprofresor (60613 in chips)
    Seat 7: Sebsssx (125189 in chips)
    Seat 8: Dodinere (49504 in chips)
    matt13lolol: posts the ante 250
    FrankTaylor3: posts the ante 250
    alexkopter: posts the ante 250
    sydens: posts the ante 250
    shogunM: posts the ante 250
    domprofresor: posts the ante 250
    Sebsssx: posts the ante 250
    Dodinere: posts the ante 250
    shogunM: posts small blind 1000
    domprofresor: posts big blind 2000
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to shogunM [Ts Js]
    Sebsssx: folds
    Dodinere: folds
    matt13lolol: folds
    FrankTaylor3: raises 3000 to 5000
    alexkopter: folds
    sydens: calls 5000
    shogunM: calls 4000
    domprofresor: folds
    *** FLOP *** [5d Ks 9s]
    shogunM: checks
    FrankTaylor3: bets 13110
    sydens: folds
    shogunM: calls 13110
    *** TURN *** [5d Ks 9s] [Qh]
    shogunM: checks
    FrankTaylor3: bets 31202
    shogunM: raises 52082 to 83284
    FrankTaylor3: calls 52082
    *** RIVER *** [5d Ks 9s Qh] [Qd]
    shogunM: bets 168651 and is all-in
    FrankTaylor3: calls 168651
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    shogunM: shows [Ts Js] (a straight, Nine to King)
    FrankTaylor3: shows [Kh Qc] (a full house, Queens full of Kings)
    FrankTaylor3 collected 549090 from pot
    shogunM finished the tournament in 25th place and received $74.61.
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot 549090 | Rake 0
    Board [5d Ks 9s Qh Qd]
    Seat 1: matt13lolol folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 2: FrankTaylor3 showed [Kh Qc] and won (549090) with a full house, Queens full of Kings
    Seat 3: alexkopter folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 4: sydens (button) folded on the Flop
    Seat 5: shogunM (small blind) showed [Ts Js] and lost with a straight, Nine to King
    Seat 6: domprofresor (big blind) folded before Flop
    Seat 7: Sebsssx folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 8: Dodinere folded before Flop (didn't bet)

    FML 135bb's down the drain. now, first of all..... anyone who knows Franky baby knows hes pretty fuckin looney tunes crazy. I have lots of history with him, 3 betting and 4 betting, playing large pots, so on so forth. Is there any other line against a player like this?! I can't not jam for value.... even with the stack sizes at this stage... right?! or am I just suicidal.. I know he's calling any Q and very possibly a K especially since spades brick. I know against a lotttttt of players I'll x/c like 75k or whatever they put in on the river and then just shake my damn head when the KQ gets turned over, especially at this stage of the tournament. But against this kind of player? How do I not jam.... I mean realistically when he flats my turn x/r I feel he has KQ, AQss, KJ, KT, K9, Q9, potentially QJ and QT. Like I said I have played lots of hands with him in the past and I know that he knows I don't have to be super nutted here, thus he is definitely calling lighter than most....but a big part of me also says if he has a set he just bangs it in over my x/r so I have eliminated those hands from his range.... and if that's the case how do I not just ram it in, being that I only have 2 hands in his range that can beat me? I just feel given our history, and the strength of my hand... is just losing value by not jamming. But then I reconsider, given the stack sizes and stage of tournament.... this hand has been bugging me, definitely a lot to consider... just looking for some more input.

    Why couldn't it have just been the Qs lolllllllllll
     
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  2. I think based on the exposition you give regarding the levelling going on between you and the villain, that you played the hand really well. Turning your hand into a bluff, levelling yourself, etc. sort of critique probably doesn't apply in the circumstances; shit just went wrong - doesn't mean it's bad.
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  3. Something I would say is that KJ/K10. QJ/Q10 are being blocked by your holdings, so I'd lean more toward the K9,KQ,AK,AQs sort of range and I agree with what you say about villain probably shipping his sets when you x/r turn. River , you could c/c I suppose but that allows villain to shove on you when he's not nutted, guess you'd be calling off anway given the metagame involved here. Still think your reasoning does support your play though and I admire the spirit, be interested in what others have to say here.
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  4. True.. I also wasn't too sure what to think of AK in his range here, I kind of feel like he may dump it when I x/r the turn since it doesn't really have much equity to improve. I think he's more likely to hold onto KJ and KT since they have drawing equity..

    but 120 views and only 1 person?! cmoooooon people
     
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  5. Looks to me like you both played the hand well. Against a player as you describe him I really like the river shove. I think when he calls your turn ck/r his range narrows to AA, KK, QQ, 99, AKs, AQs, AKo, AQo, KQs, K9s, KQo, K9o, Q9s, Q9o - AA if he's the type that can't ever fold AA, even on a board like this, about 104 combinations of cards are in his range after the turn ck/r, of those cards only 30 combinations beat you, assuming he doesn't ship over your raise on the turn with KK, QQ, 99, which I think he would have figuring the way you describe him. My combo counting may be a little off, it's not my strongest asset.

    All that said I'm pretty sure I play it the same way unless my gut is screaming his has one of those 30 combos.

    You just got really unlucky, looks like way too many of my rivers lately. Half of that time my gut was screaming but I failed to listen to it.
     
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  6. Agree with Cage's analysis. Nothing more to be done. If you c/c river it's the same outcome and if you jam turn it's the same outcome, but jamming turn would be very bad long run vs V. Just bad luck, which is what makes the game great to win at!
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  7. shogunM,

    I am going to say something that may sound like blashphemy, but this is a spot where you should have folded preflop and here's why:

    1. To start the hand you are a top 5 stack in the tournament with 25 remaining.

    2. You going against the only stack at the table that can cripple you.

    3. He has position on you, and you are in the SB.

    Hypothetically, what was your plan if BB shoves pre and Crazy calls, because of the price of your hand are you flatting? Or if BB calls and you flop your draw you check, BB checks, Crazy Bets you call, and BB jams, Crazy calls, then what are you doing?

    I think getting yourself involved in a hand like this in the SB at this stage in the tourney is unnecessary. Focus on playing in position, in favorable spots. There is no reason to choose this hand to play for stacks. I'm not reccomending to not play, I am recommending to think about all of the possible outcomes before getting involved. Your goal is top 3 not risking your entire tourney to jump 2 spots when there is plenty of tourney left.

    Hopefully that is useful advice.
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  8.  
    Originally Posted by luckylaidee View Post

    Agree with Cage's analysis. Nothing more to be done. If you c/c river it's the same outcome and if you jam turn it's the same outcome, but jamming turn would be very bad long run vs V. Just bad luck, which is what makes the game great to win at!


    By v bad, I mean a lot of the time V may be scared out on the turn to a jam, but that's not really the issue here. Just v unlucky on river.
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  9. You know I didn't look at this well enough, I guess. I didn't notice that you were small blind and had to call 3K more. I'm all for defending blinds but you just stuck your ass in a sling for no reason. Not only were you going up against the only stack that could bust you, he's super aggro and you have to play him out of position. this is never a good spot to put yourself in.

    As played. you did play it well but I have to agree with DaddyDuck, I think you should have folded pre now that I've really looked at the hand better.
     
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  10. I don't think this can seriously be a fold pre,J10 o maybe but not J10s.
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  11.  
    Originally Posted by cage View Post

    I don't think this can seriously be a fold pre,J10 o maybe but not J10s.

    I disagree with the fold pre too!

    135bb deep and facing a raise from an aggressive big stack. What are we going to do here, fold every decent hand and wait only for premiums or for him to fold once in a blue moon? Still 25 left and a beautiful speculative hand, nah, personally I love the call.

    Whilst I understand he can bust us and we are out of position, I think we have to take these spots and play super cautiously postflop and hope we get the opportunity to get some of his chips.

    I´m not actually sure about the river shove. Sure, he is calling your cr on the turn with a Qx or Kx but is he calling that big bet with Kx. Plus if you bet river you give the aggro guy a chance to jam a combo draw as a bluff. Although after cr turn I thought you looked nutted by shoving rather than bluffing. I thought maybe you lose value here overall.

    If my gut was telling me he was nutted here like 99 55 or kq q9 etc I might have checked river when that board paired and called his river bet rather than give him the opportunity to chx raise river. But, my river record is not great.

    So yeah I´ll throw up with you, I like a good spew!
    Edited By: samj123 1 Week Ago at 02:16 PM
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  12. As played I'm fine with pre-flop call and flop line. Agree with Cage and samj123 that these are mandatory calls this deep. You can make the nuts with this hand and when you do our opponent will often have strong relative strength connecting with over cards that help us more and get us that diaper money $$$.

    The check raise on the turn seemed a little too small. Given history I think he calls a larger bet especially given how wet this board is. I guess it's fine because it set-up a less than pot size jam on the river. So I won't stick it to you too much there. I don't like the river shove. I still bet-call off river, but you open ripping forces all of his bluffs to fold. So you miss value from him being "looney" like you say he is and the history you have between you guys. I haven't worked it out from a combos perspective, but there may even be more EV in checking the river vs. ripping or bet-calling. This is because I don't think he calls off with nearly as many hands as you assumed and he definitely turns some of his hands in to bluffs. Very close, but I still like open ripping less than bet-calling.
     
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  13.  
    Originally Posted by cage View Post

    I don't think this can seriously be a fold pre,J10 o maybe but not J10s.


    Absolutely. If one is chucking JTs there with 3:1 odds plus the BB who may swell those odds, then there is something amiss. Can play it cautiously post flop, and get it in very good, as in this case.
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  14. My cat would love to throw up with you shes very good at it and could probably teach you a few things as she is an expert in that department as for the hand well played you got unlucky
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  15. Hmm, My last comment on this, but I think some of you that are so quick to say you should play this hand are not thinking about the full situation contextually. In general this hand is perfectly fine. The reason, why you wouldnt play this spot is because of the stage of the tournament, your current position in the tournament, and the stack sizes involved. If your goal is to win, you have already done the dirty work to put yourself in a position to win, so at this point playing solid poker revolves mostly around playing in position,abusing the smaller stacks, the linpers, and players that are being passive or easily folding when they blank out on the flop. If you are a top 5 stack near the end of a tournament you need to preserve that stack and pick up chips a lot more than trying to stack people. This is a common problem that tourney players have towards the end. They dont make that adjustment... and end up busting prematurely.
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  16.  
    Originally Posted by DaddyDuck View Post

    Hmm, My last comment on this, but I think some of you that are so quick to say you should play this hand are not thinking about the full situation contextually. In general this hand is perfectly fine. The reason, why you wouldnt play this spot is because of the stage of the tournament, your current position in the tournament, and the stack sizes involved. If your goal is to win, you have already done the dirty work to put yourself in a position to win, so at this point playing solid poker revolves mostly around playing in position,abusing the smaller stacks, the linpers, and players that are being passive or easily folding when they blank out on the flop. If you are a top 5 stack near the end of a tournament you need to preserve that stack and pick up chips a lot more than trying to stack people. This is a common problem that tourney players have towards the end. They dont make that adjustment... and end up busting prematurely.

    Was a sick river for the OP and it all went to shit but until then the hand illustrates perfectly well why this is never a fold pre - if the river bricks and hero gets no more chips out of the villain he's still picked up a nice bundle of chips. It seems like you are advocating becoming a nit ( I did see your general advice to hit passives/shortstacks, etc. but everyone knows that shit ) with 25 runners left and we all know how long it can take to get 3 or 4 tables down to 1 table.
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  17.  
    Originally Posted by DaddyDuck View Post

    If you are a top 5 stack near the end of a tournament you need to preserve that stack and pick up chips a lot more than trying to stack people. This is a common problem that tourney players have towards the end. They dont make that adjustment... and end up busting prematurely.

    Wow we could have a debate about this for hours and potentially still be far apart. Look up the biggest winners of MTTs throughout modern history and you'll find they have a lower ITM% but their average finish position is higher. That's where all the money is in tournaments. I know you know this and I don't need to explain it much further. Did you see the wsop main event this year? Did you see how blumstein just ran all over the table? Did you see it the year before when Qui won? How about Mckheehan? Nobody wants to implode with a huge stack with only a few tables left. But this is what it looks like. Tell us OP...how did Frankey finish in this tournament?

    Spoiler Alert: He won it.
    Edited By: negrealanu 1 Week Ago at 05:07 PM
     
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  18. I've been seeing this argument come up recently in a few active threads around chip preservation, sitting on one's hands, avoiding catastrophic hands with other top stacks, laddering up, etc. I will admit I'm no ICM master and I have grown to appreciate the nuances and implications of ICM. There are definitely adjustments, especially around the bubble and pay jumps, that like it or not we need to make. However, let's all be careful that we don't subscribe to a path of thinking that consequently may limit the upside of the equity we can realize. This is lazy thinking and is a function of feeling "content". It's the same reason why amateur players miss out on so much value on the river because "they are happy with what is out there now" or when weaker players play their big hands way too fast to "take down the nice size pot" right now and not risk getting sucked out on. There are specific situations where this is correct. Rarely will it be correct playing 135 BBs deep with the nuttiest of speculative hands against a mad man. You know how rare it is to get this dream spot to happen? And people actually want to forego these situations?

    Look anyone on here reading this and chiming in has it in their heart to become a great MTT player. Being great requires us to be comfortable with taking close spots and realizing the most amount of chips and equity will usually come from the crazies. For those that prefer the theoretical explanation from Sklansky's Theory of Poker "Any time our opponent forces us to do something we wouldn't normally do, they win [equity]..." If we just sit by and continually allow this to happen, the Frankeys of the world are going to literally steal equity away from us.
    Edited By: negrealanu 1 Week Ago at 06:21 PM
     
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  19. I stick with it being okay to fold to avoid a bad spot with the only one who can beat us but to be honest, I'm not nearly nitty enough to make this fold myself. I pretty much call in this spot 95%, with that 5% being I either too busy on other tables or just get that bad feeling. I also get my ass in sling by making these calls out of position much more than I'd prefer, and I can make big folds but position gives you so much advantage - as we all know - and will help keep you from making the mistakes or misreads that can happen when we're OOP.

    All I'm going to say further on this is, I think whether we call or fold this hand here depends on our post-flop ability and experience more than anything. If we feel we are weaker than our opponent post flop then we fold, if we are better or an equal match we call and play cautiously post.
     
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  20. Thanks guys I appreciate all the input! But I do struggle to see how this is an implosion.. I can't fold JTs in this spot pre. JTo yeah, not suited. And really I feel the only questionable play is the river... even then, are we ever finding a fold? I'm putting it in regardless, especially if I only have two combos in his range that beat me then how are we not getting it in on this river? I think he is far more likely to check behind if I check the river with all his Kx and, even despite being a madman, Qx combos given my turn x/r. But at the same time I feel he is definitely calling off Kx and Qx combos when I bomb it in... thus when it comes down to it I felt I was just cutting myself short so much value by not jamming the river, which was a pretty big deciding factor..

    and of course Franky won the tourney.. as soon as he snapped me on the river he had like 25% of chips in play :P
     
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  21.  
    Originally Posted by shogunM View Post

    And really I feel the only questionable play is the river... even then, are we ever finding a fold? I'm putting it in regardless, especially if I only have two combos in his range that beat me then how are we not getting it in on this river? I think he is far more likely to check behind if I check the river with all his Kx and, even despite being a madman, Qx combos given my turn x/r. But at the same time I feel he is definitely calling off Kx and Qx combos when I bomb it in... thus when it comes down to it I felt I was just cutting myself short so much value by not jamming the river, which was a pretty big deciding factor..

    and of course Franky won the tourney.. as soon as he snapped me on the river he had like 25% of chips in play :P

    Don´t forget he only had 15bb more than you, if he loses this pot he is a short stack and in terrible shape. I just can´t see him calling a jam with his kx after you cr turn.

    He´ll call you with his Q´s - but how many can he possibly have? Q2-Q7 are unlikely and you block q10 qj. If he has Q5 Q9 or QK you are crushed, so that leaves Q8 AQ and several maybe´s.

    I get that you are not getting away from your hand on the river. Like you said any set is probably jamming your turn bet, I just still think you lose so much value by open jamming.
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