1. I was kind of confused as to what he could've been calling with on the flop and turn. I felt like this river might have somehow been part of his range. Are you betting this river (if so, how much?), or checking behind? Ghost texted below, try not to peek?

    pokerstars Game #68219942641: Tournament #540010244, $10+$1 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2011/09/29 21:07:33 JST [2011/09/29 8:07:33 ET]
    Table '540010244 21' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
    Seat 1: Howardo29 (2730 in chips)
    Seat 2: gerrywillie (3558 in chips)
    Seat 3: Automagical (3383 in chips)
    Seat 4: booboochanel (3525 in chips)
    Seat 5: Wertuxai2011 (5426 in chips)
    Seat 6: Glykodin174 (4185 in chips)
    Seat 7: Balis10 (8682 in chips)
    Seat 8: nw25th (2970 in chips)
    Seat 9: shangai11 (550 in chips) is sitting out
    Glykodin174: posts small blind 50
    Balis10: posts big blind 100
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to nw25th [Ks As]
    nw25th: raises 150 to 250
    shangai11: folds
    Howardo29: folds
    gerrywillie: folds
    Automagical: folds
    booboochanel: folds
    Wertuxai2011 has timed out
    Wertuxai2011: folds
    Wertuxai2011 is sitting out
    Glykodin174: folds
    Wertuxai2011 has returned
    Balis10: calls 150
    *** FLOP *** [Kh 9c 3d]
    Balis10: checks
    nw25th: bets 320
    Balis10: calls 320
    *** TURN *** [Kh 9c 3d] [Ad]
    Balis10: checks
    nw25th: bets 400
    Balis10: calls 400
    *** RIVER *** [Kh 9c 3d Ad] [9d]
    Balis10: checks
    Edited By: nw25th Sep 29th, 2011 at 02:26 PM
    Reason: some reason I can't make results white
    Add nw25th to Rail
  2. i bet a lil more on the turn, and i def bet the river,he checked it and its possible he has Kx or Ax i am betting here, the pot is almost 2k and i want too get smthn i bet 1k too 1400, too me checkn out means tht u will be at less thn 10 bb if he was unbelievably trapping u and wins the pot ,so therefore i'd rather assume my hand is best and maximize what i can extract from him
    Add double_kyan to Rail
  3. I am almost always checking back here. Betting at this stage of tournament opens the door to put you in a bad RR spot, most competant players are not hero calling unless your beat.

    Call me nifty but I feel the value of betting at is offset by the times your beat and or folding.

    Deeperstacked and deeper in tourney I feel can bet for value.
    Add ripomatic to Rail
  4. i am making a bigger bet on turn and value betting the river as i put the villain on ax or kx type hand GL
    Add allani12 to Rail
  5. Thanks guys.
    Guess I might've missed a bet. I checked behind, he showed KJo. Don't know if I would've gotten paid on a river bet. THANKS!
    Thread StarterAdd nw25th to Rail
  6. definitely definitely bet...sure, he has a 9 sometimes, but he has KQ or Ax often enough to make this profitable. if he raises, it's an easy fold. bet big and expect to get paid off quite a bit
    Add Gags30 to Rail
  7. [/B]
    Originally Posted by Gags30 View Post

    definitely definitely bet...sure, he has a 9 sometimes, but he has KQ or Ax often enough to make this profitable. if he raises, it's an easy fold. bet big and expect to get paid off quite a bit

    not so sure about the folding part if villian raises gags ...........hes already being told too bet big , bet folding seems like suicide
    Add double_kyan to Rail
  8. what exactly are you beating if the dude c/r?

    seems like an easy vbet/fold especially in a $11 mtt
    Edited By: FenwayKing Sep 30th, 2011 at 03:36 PM
    Reason: mention buyin limit
    Add FenwayKing to Rail
  9. You absolutely have to bet here at these stakes. You will almost never be check-raised with a worse hand, (probably gona be a 9 or running diamonds), and you're almost always getting value out of Kx or Ax, even on the river. People don't fold pairs, especially not random BB flatters in $11 freezeouts.

    Anyone else feel as though a bigger bet on the turn could've led to a near pot sized jam on the river? Personally this is a spot where I used to value a lot, but with a LAG image, I started to realize I can shove these rivers and get called by Ax or Kx all day at these stakes. If you are betting more than 700 on the turn (which I def would), then you are setup for a jam quite nicely.

    Part of the reason I like this line is because your villain is relatively deep stacked, and it would seem quite spewy too (personally I hate his flat, and I think KJo is a fold for most people OOP). Most players who flat these types of hands don't like to take a 9k stack in this spot and call two barrels then fold to a river shove.
    Edited By: Odyssey77 Oct 1st, 2011 at 01:11 AM
    Add Odyssey77 to Rail
  10. dunno why u would ever check behind ever? he hasnt showing one bit of strength in the hand what so ever ... now n again he'll pop up with some stupid hand / trap that beats u but no where near enough for it not to be way profitable to bet ..... most of the time there he should have the hand he has ... most hand that makes sense and most of the time it is . bet that shittt
    Add xxCelticFCxx to Rail
  11. Bet river 100% of time. IMO you could bet around 500 on river for value from any K, or just jam allin to make it look like a bluff. I think if you bet anywhere in between it lessens your chance of getting called.
    Add donkiman to Rail
  12. damn gags i'm actually trippn that u would fold here, so now i want too know if my thinking seems flawed here. hero bets 250 ,320,400=970, that leaves 2000k ,putting ourselves in this same predicament as the hero you are sayn bet big ,which sounds good too me as well,i told the OP 1k-1400 ,you say bet big so i am curious what amount is considered big, just contemplating any fold too any raise is killing me,its interesting too know why u say ez fold here. i hope u respond too this
    Add double_kyan to Rail
  13. lol Ive played alot of 11 tournaments and the players are bad and call off light. Def bet more turn like 600 so your overshove river doesnt look so huge. To the people saying b/f riv are wrong because you should be sizing turn to shove river because if the villians calling such a horrid turn then he def has a medium strength hand and with everyone these days overbetting light these are spots that are super easy. If he calls turn then im 100% shoving any river for total val. If he randomly holds on with a weird 9 then w/e but the times he calls with a weaker hand definetly outways the times he randomly has a 9 here which are pretty much never if he's calling a turn bet.
    Add rungoodmuch to Rail
  14. meh, looking back at stacks, idk, i mean, it's sort of awkward cause our stack isn't that deep. ther'es 1900 in the pot and we have like 1900 behind.so i guess we could just shove, i just feel like his range is pretty weak and the A might actually scare him a bit so i'd rather just bet like 900 or w/e. if we have like 2500 or 3k behind on the river then i would def just bet 1100 and fold to a shove, and be real convinced that he had me beat if he shoves
    Edited By: Gags30 Oct 5th, 2011 at 02:05 AM
    Add Gags30 to Rail
  15. A V-bet on the river is slightly the SAFER line to take here I think.

    His call on the flop I'm putting him on a out kicked king (KQ or worse) or some stupid draw call like QT or JT. Unless he hit a nine looking for turn info.

    The Turn with the A followed by his call narrows his range to either a bad call with the 2nd pair (K whattever) unless it makes a flush draw with the Kd Xd or an even worse call with the gut shot still. But I still think a Top pair (Kd)+flush draw or a gutshot+flush draw or even any 9 would make a play here and he didnt.

    The river I feel by the way the hand is played is pretty safe for you, so its all up to whether he has an out kicked King, a missed draw, or got lucky with a third 9 or a backdoor flush.

    If you v-bet he either makes a bad call out kicked, or folds the missed draw....and if he check raises you are almost committed anyways and were just out played or coolered if he has trips, a boat, or a flush. gg
    Edited By: Dwain Phoenix Oct 5th, 2011 at 05:31 AM
    Reason: turn play
    Add Dwain Phoenix to Rail
  16. bet turn a lot bigger, villain isn't folding that often...now shove
    Add rivverkiller to Rail
  17. Basically what everyone else said... Id size turn a bit bigger so you can shove any river for about 2/3 or 3/4 psb.
    Add ManchVegasPwn to Rail
  18. When he calls the flop I'm basically putting him on Kx, 9x, and pairs that he was either set mining with, or maybe not crazy about 3b calling 30bb with (55-JJ), guess you could put a random gutterball in there too, but def not a big part of it.

    So while I agree that the turn sizing is kinda goofy, it could just be small enough to convince the villian that his Kx is still good and that the hero in the hand was just putting in some kind of lame/weak bluff to represent the obv scare card.

    My question, to those who are recommending a larger turn bet, what exactly do we feel we will be getting value from in that spot? Are you thinking that the villian still calls a bet of like 600-800 into 1200 on the turn with most Kx, 9, third pair, a lame draw? I mean ppl, esp at this level, are rarely putting in big bluffs on the turn on this kind of board. Not saying it doesn't happen. However, I have to belive any kind of big turn bet here, to this villian, screams strength.

    Might we not be better checking this turn and going for big value on the river where many players might consider making a bluff when checked to in that spot?

    Pretty small % of the time he has a 9 here and I'm never putting him on diamonds. Plus if he does have a 9 isn't he check raising the turn like almost always? Kx seems like the most logical holding imo.
    Edited By: TheVillageGrinder Oct 5th, 2011 at 02:44 PM
    Add TheVillageGrinder to Rail
  19. agree with some of what villagegrinder said. i think people saying to bet bigger/a lot bigger on turn are being result oriented or just aren't playing it optimally. i mean, this board is still pretty dry on the turn and we've basically got the nuts, and the Ace is potentially a big action killer for us. betting smaller on turn allows hero to get value more often out of Kx and can also induce an occasional bluff from villain when he makes a bad flop peel with stuff like QJ/QT/JT (or it can cause him to peel again with one of those hands when he obv doesn't have the right price to do so, even when our turn bet is 400 or w/e).

    so ya, betting bigger on the turn to jam river is fine if we expect to get 3 streets of (big) value from villain often enough, but that seems pretty unlikely given the turn card and his range. i'd rather bet something like 300/400/700, or occasionally 300/check/800 (or if for some reason we think Ax is a big part of his range by the river, we can just go 300/400/pot size jam... again tho, seems unlikely).

    anyway, as played you've got 1 psb left. if you think he's got an Ace a lot or is the type of player that just isn't going to fold ever once he flops top pair, then bet big or just jam. if you think Kx is more likely, just bet like 1/4 to 1/3 pot.
    Add shanetrain22 to Rail
  20. Everything you've said stays true if we bet bigger and I don't think most randoms in an $11 tourney are folding a king to a 550-650 bet on the turn and we're rarely getting a 9 to put more chips in the pot anyways. Plus we still have the option of betting small on the river if we want but it makes jamming a lot easier.
    Add rivverkiller to Rail
  21. RK-mad respect for your thought process overall but, in this instance, I def think its more likely that a random 11dolla mtt'er folds a K (esp a weak one) to double barrel action from us on this board.

    I actually think it would be more likely that we get called down from a player that we know to be on a higher level of thought process cause, they're gonna know (and perhaps they're gonna know that we know) that the A is a perfect card to barrel at, and figure that their K is good there a lot of time.
    Add TheVillageGrinder to Rail

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