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Plattsburgh

I am sick of seeing all of the "cash game players" knock tourney players.

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Let me preface this by saying this is not a personal shot at anyone, I have lots of people I know who strictly play cash.

But lets be serious... when talking about tourney players, how can you say they suck or they are tourney donks? Just because you think they may not be able to beat 1/2 so what? If they played strictly cash like you I would bet they would be able to play just as well as you (depending on the time spent, obv)

Honestly, I have played tourneys for 2.5 years and everyone I know that constantly wins, wins for a reason.

So what is your gripe against tourney players, cash game specialists?

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I play almost exclusivly cash.

I think someone who has only ever played cash games would fair better in tournements than someone who only ever played tournements would do playing cash. I don't have any evidence to back that up, thats just what I think would happen.

I think most strong tournement players could probably do very well in cash games if they devoted their time to it, and same thing for cash players playing tournements.

Its just a different game, but someone who is good at one and has good poker sense shouldn't have too much trouble adapting to the other.

EDIT: I know I can't spell, and Im not gonna fix shit, so gfy if you have a problem with some misplaced letters.

EDIT 2: This has nothing to do with the actual players, but I make way more money on my bankroll then I could if I played MTTs on the same BR, and thats not even close.

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Your wrong if you think cash games is just about set mining. Watch a cardrunenrs video. I have done well at both and I think cash players think deeper into the game then mtt players. I am kinda sick and tired of people giving all the glory to these 15% roi ranked players

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AMEN to the title of this post..... but what really makes me laugh is when the cash game player starts talking shit in a MTT right after they get outplayed in a hand....I have nothing against cash game players (i play a little myself) but for some reason there are cash game players who think they can come to a MTT and are better than everyone at the table - and they are not bashful about telling everyone they are better cause they play "cash games".... then when you bust them they say something like "come play me at a HU cash game table, I'll destroy your bankroll" or they will call everyone at the table a donkey and say something like, "I'm heading back to the cash game to get away from you donks"....

I actually dont think its the winning cash game players that do this, I think its the losing cash game players who are trying to make a score in a MTT and feel they can somehow intimidate the other players by saying they are a cash game player or maybe they just need to pacify and justify themselves.... whatever it is I am not sure but its annoying nonetheless.... the one thing I noticed is once someone announces themselves a cash game player they are much more easy to read and play against if you analyze their plays in the mind of a cash game player...

At the end of the day I wish I was better at both - cash games and MTT.

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People say this because most people consider 'real poker' deep stacked poker (cash games being the most deep stacked). Most MTT players and ESP. turbo players are all preflop and flop. When you are not used to playing deep stacked, people dont understand the turn/river dynamics as hands in MTTs rarely reach the turn in the later stages (when all the money is being played for)

Obv there are exceptions ie rebuys have decent structure for most of the tournament but still at the final table when you are playing for all of the money it is almost strictly preflop/flop action. Btw, I am not saying that MTTs arent 'real poker' just pointing out that is likely the reason a lot of people say tourney donks etc.

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Hmmm, when I played cash games full time, I feel as though I was a much better tourney player and poker player for that matter. Cash game players recognize reads and betting patterns better than your "AVERAGE" tournament player. Thats just my opinion, Im not stating that I believe cash game players are better, I am stating what I see at the tables.

Boke

P.S. I only play tournaments now.

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firstly, why would anybody care about what some idiot poker player thinks about you anyway? at the end of the day its your bankroll that speaks and whether you are happy with it or not - fuck reputation, being ranked and popularity.

I for my part started grinding micro s&gs, then build my bankroll vastly with cash games until I got so arrogant to think that I could play 2/4 with my limited BR - eventially I went broke and had to redeposit for two weeks until I finally realized that I cant grind myself back on the micro limit cash games. I focused on MTTs and read the harrington books and got my BR back with interest in the 3 dollar rebuy. I then had twice the money I had before and was sooo happy I could play my old 1/2 game where I almost tripled my BR again (brag post obv) -

what Im trying to say: the only thing that cash games and tournaments have in common is: it's both poker - but that is all. both require their own very complex strategies, and those are very different and Im sure neither one involves more luck than the other.

When I sit down and decide whether I want to play a tournament or a cash game, I weigh several factors:

- What do I feel like playing? (mostly when Im reading a book on tournaments I will first check out the tournamet schedule, when its a book about cash games, I'll check out if there are some juicy tables)

- how much time do I have? (if Im supposed to meet my girlfriend in 3 hours, registering for a tournament is obv not the brightest idea, whereas I can come and go at the cash tables whenever I want)

- Am I at the top of my game? (when I feel I am really in the mood for playing, I tend to rather play cash since then its okay to put some bigger part of my BR at risk - as opposed, when Im tired I rather will sign up for tournament where I at worst might lose the buyin but have a shot at cashing big if I run good)

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It is much much easier to learn tournaments than cash games. the average online tournament player is also horrible at poker in general- why? because many of the players you'll see in <$50 buy ins are recreational players who are playing for fun.

I am pretty sure I could teach someone to beat $50 tournaments online in a day or two. It would take me significantly longer to teach them how to beat 1/2nl(especially with how skill levels in cash games have changed)

that being said...

LOL DONKAMENTS!

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this is from 2005, I'm glad to see you've changed so much and your game has gotten so much better since then

PokerStars Game #2371311597: Tournament #11248404, Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (200/400) - 2005/08/19 - 00:17:56 (ET)

Table '11248404 109' Seat #8 is the button

Seat 1: MountainMan9 (5295 in chips)

Seat 2: Stockseller (19204 in chips)

Seat 3: straytoaster (18497 in chips)

Seat 4: adanthar (16585 in chips)

Seat 5: Zampy (11819 in chips)

Seat 7: plattsburgh (9978 in chips)

Seat 8: ieforbb (17702 in chips)

Seat 9: georgeman88 (3375 in chips)

MountainMan9: posts the ante 25

Stockseller: posts the ante 25

straytoaster: posts the ante 25

adanthar: posts the ante 25

Zampy: posts the ante 25

plattsburgh: posts the ante 25

ieforbb: posts the ante 25

georgeman88: posts the ante 25

georgeman88: posts small blind 200

MountainMan9: posts big blind 400

*** HOLE CARDS ***

Dealt to adanthar [Qc Qs]

Stockseller: folds

straytoaster: folds

adanthar: raises 800 to 1200

Zampy: folds

plattsburgh: calls 1200

ieforbb: folds

georgeman88: folds

MountainMan9: folds

*** FLOP *** [7h 2h Kd]

adanthar: bets 1600

plattsburgh: raises 1600 to 3200

chadditty is connected

adanthar: calls 1600

*** TURN *** [7h 2h Kd] [5d]

Stockseller said, "there we go platts"

adanthar: checks

plattsburgh: bets 2800

adanthar: calls 2800

*** RIVER *** [7h 2h Kd 5d] [5s]

adanthar: checks

plattsburgh: checks

*** SHOW DOWN ***

adanthar: shows [Qc Qs] (two pair, Queens and Fives)

plattsburgh: mucks hand

adanthar collected 15200 from pot

*** SUMMARY ***

Total pot 15200 | Rake 0

Board [7h 2h Kd 5d 5s]

Seat 1: MountainMan9 (big blind) folded before Flop

Seat 2: Stockseller folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Seat 3: straytoaster folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Seat 4: adanthar showed [Qc Qs] and won (15200) with two pair, Queens and Fives

Seat 5: Zampy folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Seat 7: plattsburgh mucked [8h 8d]

Seat 8: ieforbb (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Seat 9: georgeman88 (small blind) folded before Flop

plattsburgh: U ****IN CALL

plattsburgh: NICE JOB

adanthar: I believed you

plattsburgh: ***

plattsburgh said, "WOW"

plattsburgh said, "UR ****ING HORRIBLE"

plattsburgh: cant let go of QQ

plattsburgh: obv

adanthar: right

plattsburgh: wow adam

plattsburgh: ur ****ing unbelievable

plattsburgh: ****ing pathetic

plattsburgh: cant lay down a hand

plattsburgh: its unreal

plattsburgh: u are such a donkey

During the break:

plattsburgh: ur the worst adan

adanthar: no u

plattsburgh: cant dump QQ

plattsburgh: unreal

Stockseller: enjoy ur last 5 minutes

Stockseller: platts

plattsburgh: yep

plattsburgh: I will

plattsburgh: donkeys will never win this

plattsburgh: at least thats the truth

Dealer: ieforbb is sitting out

plattsburgh: unbelievable

plattsburgh: u will never be successful adan

plattsburgh: because u cant let go of hands

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Well I myself am predominately a tournament player and so I may be biased but there are many tournaments that can be played that have BOTH the aspects of a tournament (pre flop poker/position/stack size) primarily at the end but also has deep stack poker that is played a lot like cash games are (like right after rebuy period in rebuys and deep stack tourneys in the beginning-mid stages) So I think that tourneys are more situational play than actual reads on specific players since I see so many MTT players play like 8 tables at once where its impossible to get in-depth reads on anyone.

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It is much tougher to learn how to beat deepstacked nl cash games in the longrun than it is to learn how to beat low and medium stakes mtts in the long run. Nl cash games are tougher to learn how to beat because, due to having to play so much deeperstacked, you HAVE to know how to play a very good postflop game, and deepstacked postflop poker is simply much tougher to learn how to do well than shortstacked preflop and flop play. The vaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaast majority of cash game players could just have a 2 or 3 hour lesson with anyone who is a decent MTT player, and have that person explain the proper pushfold strategy and shortstack strategy for when the blinds get big, and the cash game player will at that very moment have instantly become a winning mtt player, at least playing-style-wise. This is cuz they already play much better deepstacked poker then the average mtter, so they have no problems with the early stages of the tourney, and then the later stages of the tourney they super easily learned in like 1-3 hours from any person that beats mtts and understands what "m" is and how to adjust your game based on your m, it gets easier and easier the shorterstacked the play gets.

Whereas the other way around doesn't necessarily work. This is because a lot of people who are beating mtts in the long run are not winning due to being particularly good at deepstacked poker, but rather just due to the fact that they don't tilt often, and are patient enough to just play super-tight through the early stages, avoiding dangerous big postflop pots if possible, and then using flawless pushfold math later on, which is not hard at all to learn how to do. So since a lot of them never had to learn to play good postflop poker, and they can't just learn in a couple hours from someone who beats nl cash games how to play good postflop poker, cuz there is no syste or general strategy for it. Much of it is specific to whichever of a huge number of situations the flop, turn and river bring. It's just something you would need a lot of actual experience at to learn how to beat.

So basically, the average winning cash game player either already could beat mtts easily as they are, or if they really didn't understand short-stack push/fold strategy somehow, they could super easily learn it from a friend quickly, whereas the average winning mtt player would have to spend weeks practicing deepstacked poker before they had enough experience to play a good deepstacked postflop game. So yeah cash game players actually are basically, ON AVERAGE, "better"

-bfactor

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I'm not one to talk a lot of crap about the difference between cash game players and tourney players as I have a lot of respect for a lot of the tourney players that I know but I will say this. Tournaments is like triple A ball. For the most part, the very best tourney players move to cash because they make more money. If they can't beat cash at the high levels, they stay in tournaments. That is just the way it is. It's true and there is no denying it. I'm not saying all tourney players can't beat cash because its not true, but if they can beat the higher stakes cash games then its stupid for them to play tourneys all day. I'm not going to delve deeper but with cash game players you can't have holes in your game or you'll get eaten alive. Tourney players can get away with some holes by being aggressive and running well.

For example, I would guess a good 10/20 nl player makes about $550-$600/hour playing poker (I personally know someone multitabling a lot of 3/6 and 2/4nl where I live that has made $540/hour over the last 6 months).. I'd be really surprised if the best tourney players make better than that per hour playing online, but maybe i'm wrong.

To conclude.... who cares, it isn't a big deal. Cash players shouldn't talk crap to tourney players, they should be trying to convince them to play cash so they can make more money. Tourney players should be happy with the $100+ per hour they make or they should really hone their game and play cash games.

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