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nolan

the backing in high stakes mtt is pathetic

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the state of high stakes mtt is pathetic.

marginally EV to greatly +EV players are all backed and nobody has any initiative to actually build their own bankroll. instead they all just make 30k a year while being 200k in makeup praying for a big score so they can please their sugar daddies.

cash game players are the only poker players deserving of respect in todays poker climate.

discuss.

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Sure there is different skill sets but I can't see how you could argue that cash game players aren't better overall poker players than tourney players. If you take any winning 2/4+ player and put them in tourneys they will either immediately be a winner or figure out how to pushbot in like 2 weeks and be a winner. Same can't be said about tourney players switching to cash as most ranked p5ers cannot beat 2/4

You came up with this how?

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By playing with ranked p5ers and by playing 2/4?

We've had threads like this before discussing cash players vs mtters and the consensus is always that most good tourney players cannot beat midstakes cash.

This is a pretty stupid statement. They cannot beat midstakes cash b/c they havent played it enough. If I were to put my mind in cash games I'm pretty sure that with in a year I could beat 2/4.

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i like threads like these.

if u are a full time backed mtt'er (not in the elite class, but good) ur roi is probably around 30-50%. but slice your roi in half bc of your backer, and pay taxes and how much are u realistically making per year without running hot?

personally i like playing sunday mtts, game selecting good live tournaments, and grinding cash during the week. this gives me steady income while taking shots once in a while. after every sunday i wonder why i even play online mtts at all, as i haven't had success in them in a long time, and i realize that despite me being +ev this could go on forever without me reaching my true expectation.

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This is a pretty stupid statement. They cannot beat midstakes cash b/c they havent played it enough. If I were to put my mind in cash games I'm pretty sure that with in a year I could beat 2/4.

nah jordankickz is right this isnt 2007 guys mid stakes cash is very hard to beat consistently these days...after i quit playing sngs for a living and before i found mtt's i dabbled in 1/2 cash on and had quite a bit of success but found it to be very tedious and mind numbing. always playing the same stacks rly didnt appeal to me and i moved on. thats what makes cash games so hard is constantly being able to play ur best while there are tons of guys who have always been playing cash who are much better at targetting who there supposed to play pots vs and are extremly patient and controlled. alot of the guys who are playing 2/4 right now are guys who were playing 3/6 5/10 a year or 2 ago...sure makememaster there might even be a few lineups at 2/4 that u could beat right now but to go back day in and day out and give spew so rarely is what differs cash gamers/from us tourney donks

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Sure there is different skill sets but I can't see how you could argue that cash game players aren't better overall poker players than tourney players. If you take any winning 2/4+ player and put them in tourneys they will either immediately be a winner or figure out how to pushbot in like 2 weeks and be a winner. Same can't be said about tourney players switching to cash as most ranked p5ers cannot beat 2/4

My point was that strong thinking MTT players, can 100% beat 2/4 cash if they put in the hours to get better. It is very true that there are many top 100 players that aren't strong thinking players, however I feel the "elite" have a pretty good concept of poker as a whole. And with practice and just plain puttin in the volume they should be able to beat mid limit cash.

Basically, a great player is a great player and will find a way to beat pretty much any game they play. It may take some time and volume, but if they have a great poker mind they can beat the game. (Obv within reason)

**This is def not a MTT players are better than cash game players post AT ALL** Cash game sickos are true sickos, and because of the deeper stacks, it allows a lot more intricate decision making.

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for op ne everyone who plays cash if u could be backed for higher cash games u cant afford would u wnat to play them?

if so what are you complainging about, if not why ?can you not beat them or just dont have the desire?

personally i wanted to play with the best. imo i want to beat the best mtts becauuse thats what i play. Im sure you would want to play higher if u were rolled for it. same thing imo

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you never answered the question of how many hours a mtter plays? where in my post do i say it is easy?

Mtters do put in a lot of hours, but most of them are playing <10 tables. Not judging you or anything, but 24 tabling is constant clicking and has to be draining more than 10 tabling mtts over a day, while not being able to get really indepth with spots and more "robotic." But do agree cash players>mtt players except the very best/blessed.

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you never answered the question of how many hours a mtter plays? where in my post do i say it is easy?

Don't know what an average MTTer plays... but I would guess most put in 12 hours a day on a sunday and 7 hours a day 3 other days a week... so 30ish hours of 2-10 tables?

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what stakes did u play and how many hrs and tables do u have to play to make SNE on average?

Supernova not SNE. 18+ tabled 25NL and 50NL (occasionally a couple 100NL tables)...had many 120hr months. Not a glamorous lifestyle but I didn't know many college students that lived better than me :/ The cash bonuses every couple of months did kinda rock.

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Not that it makes a huge diff because the games are two different things, but I'd make a bet in some way that if we chose 10 random names from the ranked p5ers, only 1-2 of them would be winners in a sample of like 150k hands at 2/4 6m+. Over time could they beat it? Hard to quantify but maybe 2-3 more could beat it after a year.

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Its seems obvious, if you are a long term winner, at MTT's or cash, its foolish to be staked.

That said, as many posts in the thread have explained, there are also many good reasons why there are advantages, to being backed!

Its a very complex subject, and I think its more a question of what suits you best.

It would be interesting though, to know how much is won or lost in an average year by the backers.

Anyone care to have a guess?

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I agree cash game players are better. But MTT players do have to adjust to stack sizes much more. You have to know how to play 100bbs deep and 10bbs deep. A bunch of people come into the cash games buying in for the minimum and a lot of cash games players couldn't adjust. Now they have set #'s of bbs you can buy into for each table (on stars at least). You could be a cash game reg and never buy in form more than 50bbs.

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I'm not trying to talk about cash game players being better than MTT players, although I'm not surprised this is what the convo always turns to. My post isn't intended to bash MTT players, but rather point out that the rampant staking is actually holding back many of hte most talented MTT players.

Nowadays, it's as though it's expected for you to be "staked" in order to make a name for yourself. I mean it's pathetic seeing it from my eyes (guess that's clear). I'm sitting at the handful of live mtt's I play per year on my own money (minus some % swapped with friends) and watching the 5-6 mediocre staked MTT guys sitting around twittering live updates for hte sugar daddies and getting texts from their backers giving them reads on people they may not know and wondering to myself "is this really the dream for these guys?" I mean, is that what they envisioned for themselves when they started climbing the ranks?

And to answer the Q about would I take a stake to play bigger games, the answer is no, and would be similar for many other cash players. The furthest most will take it is to sell 20-70% of themselves for one specific session in the event a massive fish plays a very big game (100/200+ generally). I'm not aware of hardly any cash players that play big games on a regular basis on a stake.

Also, not that my opinion is worth much, but with regards to top 100 ranked MTT'ers beating 2/4, I'm sure many could do it, but if they tried to do it by starting at 2/4 they'd probably bust their roll before they got good enough to beat it. If they started at 25nl or 50nl and took a year to climb they'd probably acquire the fundamentals necessary. I'm not going to name names, but there's a ton of very well respected/ranked players on this forum who games build around when they sit, and with good cause. I understand they want to gamble and they're not massive fish but it is what it is...

The whole reason for my post was 90% sunday tilt obv, and 10% my feeling that tournament poker in its current form is actually far more doomed than cash game poker despite popular internet theory. As it is now just about any MTT player with medium volume and a positive ROI can get backed for every 10k and I only expect this to grow. Also the slightly -EV but none fish guys who luckbox a decent ROI in their first sample will generally last longer on a stake than their skills dictate, and it cna take well over a year for someone to cut them loose.

I guess this all serves no purpose as people like being able to twitter and facebook about how they are playing 10k's all over the world far too much to actually attempt the slow process of building an MTT roll on their own and being their own man.

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I'm not trying to talk about cash game players being better than MTT players, although I'm not surprised this is what the convo always turns to. My post isn't intended to bash MTT players, but rather point out that the rampant staking is actually holding back many of hte most talented MTT players.

Nowadays, it's as though it's expected for you to be "staked" in order to make a name for yourself. I mean it's pathetic seeing it from my eyes (guess that's clear). I'm sitting at the handful of live mtt's I play per year on my own money (minus some % swapped with friends) and watching the 5-6 mediocre staked MTT guys sitting around twittering live updates for hte sugar daddies and getting texts from their backers giving them reads on people they may not know and wondering to myself "is this really the dream for these guys?" I mean, is that what they envisioned for themselves when they started climbing the ranks?

And to answer the Q about would I take a stake to play bigger games, the answer is no, and would be similar for many other cash players. The furthest most will take it is to sell 20-70% of themselves for one specific session in the event a massive fish plays a very big game (100/200+ generally). I'm not aware of hardly any cash players that play big games on a regular basis on a stake.

Also, not that my opinion is worth much, but with regards to top 100 ranked MTT'ers beating 2/4, I'm sure many could do it, but if they tried to do it by starting at 2/4 they'd probably bust their roll before they got good enough to beat it. If they started at 25nl or 50nl and took a year to climb they'd probably acquire the fundamentals necessary. I'm not going to name names, but there's a ton of very well respected/ranked players on this forum who games build around when they sit, and with good cause. I understand they want to gamble and they're not massive fish but it is what it is...

The whole reason for my post was 90% sunday tilt obv, and 10% my feeling that tournament poker in its current form is actually far more doomed than cash game poker despite popular internet theory. As it is now just about any MTT player with medium volume and a positive ROI can get backed for every 10k and I only expect this to grow. Also the slightly -EV but none fish guys who luckbox a decent ROI in their first sample will generally last longer on a stake than their skills dictate, and it cna take well over a year for someone to cut them loose.

I guess this all serves no purpose as people like being able to twitter and facebook about how they are playing 10k's all over the world far too much to actually attempt the slow process of building an MTT roll on their own and being their own man.

qft.....very well said

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I'm not trying to talk about cash game players being better than MTT players, although I'm not surprised this is what the convo always turns to. My post isn't intended to bash MTT players, but rather point out that the rampant staking is actually holding back many of hte most talented MTT players.

Nowadays, it's as though it's expected for you to be "staked" in order to make a name for yourself. I mean it's pathetic seeing it from my eyes (guess that's clear). I'm sitting at the handful of live mtt's I play per year on my own money (minus some % swapped with friends) and watching the 5-6 mediocre staked MTT guys sitting around twittering live updates for hte sugar daddies and getting texts from their backers giving them reads on people they may not know and wondering to myself "is this really the dream for these guys?" I mean, is that what they envisioned for themselves when they started climbing the ranks?

And to answer the Q about would I take a stake to play bigger games, the answer is no, and would be similar for many other cash players. The furthest most will take it is to sell 20-70% of themselves for one specific session in the event a massive fish plays a very big game (100/200+ generally). I'm not aware of hardly any cash players that play big games on a regular basis on a stake.

Also, not that my opinion is worth much, but with regards to top 100 ranked MTT'ers beating 2/4, I'm sure many could do it, but if they tried to do it by starting at 2/4 they'd probably bust their roll before they got good enough to beat it. If they started at 25nl or 50nl and took a year to climb they'd probably acquire the fundamentals necessary. I'm not going to name names, but there's a ton of very well respected/ranked players on this forum who games build around when they sit, and with good cause. I understand they want to gamble and they're not massive fish but it is what it is...

The whole reason for my post was 90% sunday tilt obv, and 10% my feeling that tournament poker in its current form is actually far more doomed than cash game poker despite popular internet theory. As it is now just about any MTT player with medium volume and a positive ROI can get backed for every 10k and I only expect this to grow. Also the slightly -EV but none fish guys who luckbox a decent ROI in their first sample will generally last longer on a stake than their skills dictate, and it cna take well over a year for someone to cut them loose.

I guess this all serves no purpose as people like being able to twitter and facebook about how they are playing 10k's all over the world far too much to actually attempt the slow process of building an MTT roll on their own and being their own man.

+ scarface win thread

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I'm not trying to talk about cash game players being better than MTT players, although I'm not surprised this is what the convo always turns to. My post isn't intended to bash MTT players, but rather point out that the rampant staking is actually holding back many of hte most talented MTT players.

Nowadays, it's as though it's expected for you to be "staked" in order to make a name for yourself. I mean it's pathetic seeing it from my eyes (guess that's clear). I'm sitting at the handful of live mtt's I play per year on my own money (minus some % swapped with friends) and watching the 5-6 mediocre staked MTT guys sitting around twittering live updates for hte sugar daddies and getting texts from their backers giving them reads on people they may not know and wondering to myself "is this really the dream for these guys?" I mean, is that what they envisioned for themselves when they started climbing the ranks?

And to answer the Q about would I take a stake to play bigger games, the answer is no, and would be similar for many other cash players. The furthest most will take it is to sell 20-70% of themselves for one specific session in the event a massive fish plays a very big game (100/200+ generally). I'm not aware of hardly any cash players that play big games on a regular basis on a stake.

Also, not that my opinion is worth much, but with regards to top 100 ranked MTT'ers beating 2/4, I'm sure many could do it, but if they tried to do it by starting at 2/4 they'd probably bust their roll before they got good enough to beat it. If they started at 25nl or 50nl and took a year to climb they'd probably acquire the fundamentals necessary. I'm not going to name names, but there's a ton of very well respected/ranked players on this forum who games build around when they sit, and with good cause. I understand they want to gamble and they're not massive fish but it is what it is...

The whole reason for my post was 90% sunday tilt obv, and 10% my feeling that tournament poker in its current form is actually far more doomed than cash game poker despite popular internet theory. As it is now just about any MTT player with medium volume and a positive ROI can get backed for every 10k and I only expect this to grow. Also the slightly -EV but none fish guys who luckbox a decent ROI in their first sample will generally last longer on a stake than their skills dictate, and it cna take well over a year for someone to cut them loose.

I guess this all serves no purpose as people like being able to twitter and facebook about how they are playing 10k's all over the world far too much to actually attempt the slow process of building an MTT roll on their own and being their own man.

You make many valid points and you seem to have your head on straight. Have you ever thought that the reason people get backed is to maintain the roll they have built through grinding on their own, and eliminate the risk of losing that roll while also trying to continually build it through higher buyin MTTs. I have a wife, I'm building a house, and i have bills. I dont want the variance of MTTs to ever dip into the "life roll" that I have built up. So I take backing to eliminate that risk, sure it dips into my ROI. But the mental stability of not going broke is worth it IMO.

Best of luck to everyone, and to Nolan. I tip my hat, because you have crushed cash games for a while now.

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Exactly this. I just started being backed and even though it sucks to give away half my profit, its far less stressful. Im having a kid in less than 2 months and needed all the life money I had which included a lot of my bankroll so I had no choice but to play it safe.

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i play cash games maybe once a month, usually 5 10 on bodog.

pretty sure i could snap beat 2/4 on any site, and i don't consider myself a top mtt'er

now, i don't think some people in the top 100 are top mtt'ers either, but anyone who plays high stake mtts, and does well in mtt's where u are deep late, such as 6 max tournies, could pretty easily beat 2/4.

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i play cash games maybe once a month, usually 5 10 on bodog.

pretty sure i could snap beat 2/4 on any site, and i don't consider myself a top mtt'er

now, i don't think some people in the top 100 are top mtt'ers either, but anyone who plays high stake mtts, and does well in mtt's where u are deep late, such as 6 max tournies, could pretty easily beat 2/4.

idk much about ur game but i dont think u can just jump in to the 2/4 6 max games that populate todays poker scene and just beat them easily....i mean im not saying ur a loser in the games or anything but if ur rly some sort of monster at 2/4 then u prolly shouldnt be playing tourneys anyway

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i play cash games maybe once a month, usually 5 10 on bodog.

pretty sure i could snap beat 2/4 on any site, and i don't consider myself a top mtt'er

now, i don't think some people in the top 100 are top mtt'ers either, but anyone who plays high stake mtts, and does well in mtt's where u are deep late, such as 6 max tournies, could pretty easily beat 2/4.

I think comparing 2/4 6m on stars to playing deep in a 6m tournament with other mtters is really ridic. All you're saying is that someone could beat a 2/4 6m table with all mtters and no cash players which yeah wouldn't be that hard to do for anyone who can even breakeven or slightly lose to cash players.

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Very nice and interesting posts/discussions..

I read this and also feel the need (like most) to share my opinion..

I've always been playing on my own roll until I had the need to cash out everything for personal circumstances. My $ABI is around $70, so I can't just put some new cash on-line and start over again, or build my roll.

I had a friend and he told me I could play for him, 50/50 w/makeup obv.

I made quiet a bit of dollars and had them cashed out, but now I'm stuck ~40K in make-up due to a downswing.

Looking back at the road I've taken, I would not do this again unless I have too.

God bless the possibility to be backed. It is what kept me and many people alive and allows them to be a professional poker player.

But in the end you give up 50% of your equity in on-line games which is a huge amount of $ and just a simple waste if you are a winning MTT player.

However. If you solely a MTT player, playing live MTTs with $5K+ BI's is impossible without being backed or hitting a huge score at the beginning of your career. Otherwise they would be considered shot taking.

Cashgame players however, have the possibility to use a small % of there roll and use it as simple entertainment or tread it like a shot but have the cash games as a back-up to grind back there roll.

Variance in poker is huge, but variance in cashgames is nothing compared to the variance one can experience playing MTTs. Min-cashing over and over again, FT bubbling or ending up 9th instead of 1st will have such a huge amount of your profit in the end of the week, month, year or even your life. Take Darvin Moon as a perfect example.

The skill factor of a MTT player compared to a Cashgame player is huge. 100BBs deep an average MTT player will definitely get slaughtered by an avg (or better) cashgame player. But why are we comparing both players? What is the need of proving someone is better then the other person?

As mentioned before; Good MTT player know how to switch gears, play more according to stack sizes and handle short stacks in a way no cash game player can do (he could, ones he would put time into this. Only would then also be an MTT player as well). A lot of short stack play is based upon math and the skill to identify peoples ranges. You can't learn this in a week or two, even if you are the best cash game player in the world. ICM and other concepts that solely apply to MTTs and not to cash games take experience, volume and a lot of work with poker stove and exel (or something else if you wish) before truly mastering this.

Last point I wanted to say is that it's great people stake other people into MTTs. Why complain? Why make topics like this (unless, like you said, it's tilt. Then I understand) complaining? The more bad (regs) players are in your MTT, the better it is for you.

I have great respect for any poker player. No matter how big, which game, what stakes or how much you make. Everyone here is here with the intention to learn in some way and loves poker.

GL and GG all..

rh300487

MTTers.com

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Really interesting thread...I think you bring up some great points Nolan and I completely agree with you... Im not a cash game player, oddly enough i play heads up sit n gos and MTTs mostly just on Sundays...

I think a big point that Nolan is getting at is the intentions of most players who are getting backed is not the for right reasons and in actuality are holding themselves back by doing so.. Ryanwelch, your situation makes sense and you could play fulltime on your own but are married, bills etc, dont want the stress of your pokeroll dipping into your life roll.. I respect this, however what Nolan is suggesting is that most people are getting backed to say they play the big buyins and feel cool and special with of course the hope they can hit something huge...

Im not anti-backing but i do think most people are losing sight of the reason we play this game which is different for all but usually is driven by a love for it and want to make money... Some its all about the money, others all the passion, most a combo of the 2 but regardless this is usually why we play this game.. Nothing wrong with wanting notoriety but to me it seems like its a lot of players driving force to play nowadays which is where this giant pool of backing is coming into play..

Ive always felt the want and need to play on my own and in turn grinded a roll to do so... Not that is the 'right' way or how it 'should' be done but i think a lot of people are losing sight of where they are headed in poker and what truly matters to them... tweet tweet, post post like Nolan said is this really what you HOPED and envisioned for yourself in poker..

Dont get me wrong, nothing wrong with dreaming, shit i hope i win the WSOP this year too but i think a lot of people should think about whether they are playing/backed for the same reasons they began grinding this game... Yes, just as great as not risking your own cash may be, trying to make a buck when in huge makeup could be just as devastating emotionally and to your game...

Just my thoughts, this is obviously not the case for everyone but definitely a trend that seems to be increasing and will be interesting to see where things go in the future...

GL

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woah woah woah big guy. I'm backed and believe me if i only made 30k a year I most certainly wouldn't keep doing whatever it is that is that I'm doing. My personal expenses in 2009 were over 30k alone. I've also never had 6 figures in makeup. I think the people you are talking about are people who aren't that great playing in mtts they should definitely not be playing.

Also your reasoning for someone like myself getting backed is completely wrong. I steadily build my roll just fine being backed. I like being able to play everything I'm profitable in. My EV in WSOP for example is ridic high, but variance is also ridic high. I couldn't afford to play all the wsops on my own as taking a 75k+ hit to my br would be quite a bit to lose. What I don't like is the risk of going broke.

I can't tell if you are referring to being backed live and online or just online but if you are 75k+ online and it's not during one of the SCOOP/WCOOP series, then yea that's a bit excessive. However, bragging about never being in more than 75k with acombined live/online deal, that's just a bit absurd. And clearly you've just lucked out in not having more makeup when there are 10-15 10k tourneys you play a year on the reg as well as the high variance WSOP events. Also, it's not always the stake's fault. Sometimes, it's just poor judgment by the backers that get people into more than 75k in makeup. Doubt most backers should be putting their stakes into the 100r on a daily basis.

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