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Why do players bet so small on the flop relative to the size of the pot in tourneys?

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victory1    0

This always happens in MTT but especially in high stakes and mid stakes MTT. I know preflop raise sizes late in the game get smaller like min raising and rarely 3x blind raises. But even when there is a caller on flop, why do people Cbet so small relative to the size to the board? This is an example of what i saw at the table and i know gboro is a very well known high stakes mtt player but almost all MTT players do this. I mean he 4bet very small and the pot size is around 43000 or so after the preflop action. One player checks and Gboro C-bets for 7999. That is like barely 1/5 the size of the pot. Yes i am aware both players only have around 54000 chips behind or so but isn't this a case of , if you cbet here whether its a bluff or a value bet, to bet more? I mean when i see players bet this small as a Cbet, its just ASKING to get raised. I mean if you had the nuts, sure its a great bet size but the majority of the time when i see cbets this small, they usually just fold to the raise/check raise.

Can someone explain why he c-bet so small? I mean if this was a low stakes tourney, all the money would have went in preflop most likely. But even if it didn't, the guy who 4 bet who probably just shove on the flop or check folded. But i rarely if ever see c-bets this small relative to the size of the pot at low stakes. Also, if Gboro did have a hand like AA/KK, this bet has to be a horrible size right? Wouldn't you just shove since theres 43000 in the pot and both of you have around 54000 behind? I mean the only time i would bet 7999 into 43000 with these stack sizes is if i had QQ or 1010 and i think even having those 2 hands is way too risky to be betting so little and giving such great pot odds to his opponent. What in the world does betting that small accomplish? It certainly doesn't look like he is milking the other guy since he folded to the check raise.

PokerStars Game #54338065880: Tournament #344011043, $300+$20 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XV (1000/2000) - 2010/12/16 2:29:40 ET

Table '344011043 78' 9-max Seat #7 is the button

Seat 1: JLmoney (83468 in chips)

Seat 2: Money800 (36506 in chips)

Seat 3: Patrolman35 (127688 in chips)

Seat 4: HmmmmReally (25080 in chips)

Seat 5: PDX-JMc (73060 in chips)

Seat 6: gboro780 (81201 in chips)

Seat 7: Celina Lin (255505 in chips)

Seat 8: plz be live (121669 in chips) out of hand (moved from another table into small blind)

Seat 9: kbp33 (79637 in chips) out of hand (moved from another table into small blind)

JLmoney: posts the ante 200

Money800: posts the ante 200

Patrolman35: posts the ante 200

HmmmmReally: posts the ante 200

PDX-JMc: posts the ante 200

gboro780: posts the ante 200

Celina Lin: posts the ante 200

JLmoney: posts small blind 1000

Money800: posts big blind 2000

*** HOLE CARDS ***

Patrolman35: folds

HmmmmReally: folds

PDX-JMc: folds

gboro780: raises 2000 to 4000

Celina Lin: folds

JLmoney: raises 6000 to 10000

Money800: folds

gboro780: raises 9999 to 19999

JLmoney: calls 9999

*** FLOP *** [Qh Td 8c]

JLmoney: checks

gboro780: bets 7999

JLmoney: raises 55270 to 63269 and is all-in

gboro780: folds

Uncalled bet (55270) returned to JLmoney

JLmoney collected 59396 from pot

JLmoney: doesn't show hand

*** SUMMARY ***

Total pot 59396 | Rake 0

Board [Qh Td 8c]

Seat 1: JLmoney (small blind) collected (59396)

Seat 2: Money800 (big blind) folded before Flop

Seat 3: Patrolman35 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Seat 4: HmmmmReally folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Seat 5: PDX-JMc folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Seat 6: gboro780 folded on the Flop

Seat 7: Celina Lin (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

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ShyGuy03533    0

while bet sizing is some what important when it comes to cash games, not so much in mtts. From the way I see it, betting 2145 instead of 3500 into a pot of 5000 has the same result, especially in hsmtts where most players are betting off of image and situation rather than the bet sizing.

in cash, its more important to bet enough because you don't just have one tourney life, u have inf buy ins.

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ShyGuy03533    0

not this

ur right. the way i said it is wrong. u could over bet the pot, or under bet it. what i meant to say is that 2/3rd pot betting isn't the norm as it used to be in mtts. now its half or sometimes even 1/3rd.

Esp w/ antes, way more players 2.5 , 2.2 and even 2.1x it instead of open 3xing it with antes.

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eDaN    0

OP you answered the question yourself.

You said, you know why ppl open for the minimum amount in late stages, soyou have to know why they're leading small.

you minraise pre to make it less spewy to raise/fold (obv you need to be doing this with monsters as well as vulnerable hands to keepyour range balanced), same thing applies for postflop play, your cbetting range obv needs to be balanced as well, witch means you need to be cbetting monsters + weakish hands and now it's the same scenario basically.

betting smaller will allow you to bet/fold more comfortably.

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ShyGuy03533    0

OP you answered the question yourself.

You said, you know why ppl open for the minimum amount in late stages, soyou have to know why they're leading small.

you minraise pre to make it less spewy to raise/fold (obv you need to be doing this with monsters as well as vulnerable hands to keepyour range balanced), same thing applies for postflop play, your cbetting range obv needs to be balanced as well, witch means you need to be cbetting monsters + weakish hands and now it's the same scenario basically.

betting smaller will allow you to bet/fold more comfortably.

Yea! whut this guy said ^^^

im horrible with words =/ lol

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victory1    0

yes eDan. Betting small on flop does allow you to bet/fold more comfortably. However, don't you feel like betting that small into a flop is just ASKING to get raised?

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ShyGuy03533    0

no because thats what balancing ranges allows u to do. maybe if u bet 3/4s pot with KK on 592 rainbow flop and then bet 1/3 with J8 on KAJ flop then people wud be raising ur bets, but since u balance ur range and keep ur bet sizing same (see betsizing is important), then wont be 3 betting u often, unless theyre 3 betting light to rape u cuz they have a read on u and are aware of situations but thats a whole diff topic

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Deoxyribo    0

Pretty sure u answered yourself in the OP.

It's about balancing. If he does this bet and it's ASKING to get raised, what if he really is asking to get raised? People see the bet and think that he wants to get raised and has a strong hand. But they'll also see him do this and fold like that HH.

Betting small allows you to induce with strong hands while also letting you get away cheaply with weak hands, and all the while keeps your ranges balanced.

It's all about balance and becomes a leveling war, etc etc

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It also allows more postflop play favoring more skilled players. Effective stacks aren't as shallow post. If you minraise you can sometimes get a double barrel off whereas if you 3x it pre, you might barely be able to c-bet. You think about all of these things before you raise of course.

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rayfox111    0

Pretty sure u answered yourself in the OP.

It's about balancing. If he does this bet and it's ASKING to get raised, what if he really is asking to get raised? People see the bet and think that he wants to get raised and has a strong hand. But they'll also see him do this and fold like that HH.

Betting small allows you to induce with strong hands while also letting you get away cheaply with weak hands, and all the while keeps your ranges balanced.

It's all about balance and becomes a leveling war, etc etc

OP you answered the question yourself.

You said, you know why ppl open for the minimum amount in late stages, soyou have to know why they're leading small.

you minraise pre to make it less spewy to raise/fold (obv you need to be doing this with monsters as well as vulnerable hands to keepyour range balanced), same thing applies for postflop play, your cbetting range obv needs to be balanced as well, witch means you need to be cbetting monsters + weakish hands and now it's the same scenario basically.

betting smaller will allow you to bet/fold more comfortably.

2 excellent explanations.

This is high stakes which it most definitely applies to, but I think its fair to say that it is less widespread the further down you drop in stakes.

Anyone care to say how common it is at the other levels? I only play $2-$5, occasionally $10.

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eDaN    0

2 excellent explanations.

This is high stakes which it most definitely applies to, but I think its fair to say that it is less widespread the further down you drop in stakes.

Anyone care to say how common it is at the other levels? I only play $2-$5, occasionally $10.

ehh hard to say I guess but I'm playing MSMTT' only, so 26$ and under + 3$r and under and I would say the deeper you get the more you see those betting patterns since most of the rly good regs also play the 26er's and 3r's but in the early stages it's pretty rare to see ppl doing it, but as you might know that also applies to minraises.

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FGEasiest    0

2 excellent explanations.

This is high stakes which it most definitely applies to, but I think its fair to say that it is less widespread the further down you drop in stakes.

Anyone care to say how common it is at the other levels? I only play $2-$5, occasionally $10.

make it common... a lot of players bet way bigger in micros, but you can go with the small bet thing cause the players fold or call no matter how much you put in the pot... Good thing to keep them in the pot when they have nothing "cause you bet soo small" etc..

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salesbeast    0

A lot of the time bet/fold situations are attempting to set up a hand later...if players see your willingness to bet out a 7k flop bet after donating $19999k preflop and then fold the next time gb does it I almost guarrantee he will have the nuts or close to and double though.

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yes eDan. Betting small on flop does allow you to bet/fold more comfortably. However, don't you feel like betting that small into a flop is just ASKING to get raised?

precisely, see here's the thing, i'll do the same thing when I flop the nuts as I will when I flop air. sometimes you want to induce a raise because they see you constantly raising and c-betting flops that they can't really put you on a hand. therefore, when we're c-betting like 1/3- 1/5 of the pot and taking them down when we don't have it, we can fold when we get raised after c-betting small and we can reel them in when they come back over the top and we have the nuts

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decamps    0

Pretty sure u answered yourself in the OP.

It's about balancing. If he does this bet and it's ASKING to get raised, what if he really is asking to get raised? People see the bet and think that he wants to get raised and has a strong hand. But they'll also see him do this and fold like that HH.

Betting small allows you to induce with strong hands while also letting you get away cheaply with weak hands, and all the while keeps your ranges balanced.

It's all about balance and becomes a leveling war, etc etc

This but also I migh add like you said C betting like he s getting reshoved or folded so he risks the minimum for the same effect as if he bet 25K or 15K c bet he save himself chips wich is so important in MTT

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mman_status    0

the reason is because in a tournament, effective stack sizes are smaller. when your opponent is out of position and he checks to you, he is likely to do the same thing no matter what you bet, so by betting small you lose less when you are bluffing and effective stack sizes are so shallow that when you have the best hand you will be playing for stacks anyway despite a 1/5 pot size bet on a flop. basically its another way to exploit positional advantage.

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AJinOK    0

b/c one of the keys to poker is to leverage an opponent's entire stack (or the entire effective stack) while risking the smallest number of chips possible... when stacks are shallow you can essentially threaten an opponent's entire stack by betting a relatively small amount compared to the pot.

in deep stack poker and 100+ bb cash games the size of the pot should be the main influence to your bet sizes... but in short stacked poker (deep in mtts), the size of the effective stack should often be the main influence of your bet sizes.

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driftdc5    0

b/c one of the keys to poker is to leverage an opponent's entire stack (or the entire effective stack) while risking the smallest number of chips possible... when stacks are shallow you can essentially threaten an opponent's entire stack by betting a relatively small amount compared to the pot.

in deep stack poker and 100+ bb cash games the size of the pot should be the main influence to your bet sizes... but in short stacked poker (deep in mtts), the size of the effective stack should often be the main influence of your bet sizes.

yeah thats pretty much it

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cream626    0

b/c one of the keys to poker is to leverage an opponent's entire stack (or the entire effective stack) while risking the smallest number of chips possible... when stacks are shallow you can essentially threaten an opponent's entire stack by betting a relatively small amount compared to the pot.

in deep stack poker and 100+ bb cash games the size of the pot should be the main influence to your bet sizes... but in short stacked poker (deep in mtts), the size of the effective stack should often be the main influence of your bet sizes.

post more plz

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