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Flowkid1

Deep in the 22$ 1R/1A on stars. Xavitop 4bet shoves, is this a standard call?

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I didnt play many hands with xavi, since we just got moved to the table together as we got down to 36 plyrs, so i dont have much info on him (Maybe 10-15 hands on that table, i wasn´t very active during these hands, he played like 2-3 pots)

He is obv a very good plyr, i guess a lot of you guys know him.

Avg was about 225K. Finaltable avg about 800K.

Im just not sure if it is a snap call, i got enough chips to find a better spot later on to ensure getting down to 18 plyrs and final the ft, so should i be worried about calling here?

Appreciate your thoughts.

pokerstars Game #70823212482: Tournament #547010536, $20+$2 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XXII (4000/8000) - 2011/11/20 2:18:48 CET [2011/11/19 20:18:48 ET]

Table '547010536 57' 9-max Seat #3 is the button

Seat 1: CoakerPoker (145695 in chips)

Seat 3: wanderercat (250527 in chips)

Seat 4: boyxavier (233051 in chips)

Seat 5: Flowkid1 (348592 in chips)

Seat 6: martin_malin (138040 in chips)

Seat 7: xavitop (560101 in chips)

Seat 8: augustiner83 (123284 in chips)

Seat 9: vitaminrus8 (359647 in chips)

CoakerPoker: posts the ante 800

wanderercat: posts the ante 800

boyxavier: posts the ante 800

Flowkid1: posts the ante 800

martin_malin: posts the ante 800

xavitop: posts the ante 800

augustiner83: posts the ante 800

vitaminrus8: posts the ante 800

boyxavier: posts small blind 4000

Flowkid1: posts big blind 8000

*** HOLE CARDS ***

Dealt to Flowkid1 [Ks Ad]

martin_malin: folds

xavitop: raises 8000 to 16000

augustiner83: folds

vitaminrus8: folds

CoakerPoker: folds

wanderercat: folds

boyxavier: folds

Flowkid1: raises 22200 to 38200

xavitop: raises 521101 to 559301 and is all-in

Edited by Flowkid1
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well i dont know who villian is, but when u 3bet AK what was your plan?, if im goin to 3bet AK here my intentions would be to 3/bet call for value, if u dont feel comfortable getting ur chips in then ur better off not 3betting here imo cuz u would be turning AK into a bluff

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People seem to have missed that we don't know anything about this particular villains style and that we just know he is good (though this deep I'm going to know people's stats and villain is actually a small loser through a large sample size). Personally I think your sizing is too small, you're giving him odds to just flat this deep and that's not what you want in this situation with these stack sizes. Your hand has more value by inticing him to get it in pre and the better way to accomplish that is by making a large raise pre to set up a simpler shove on you.

As played, I think you can take out big pairs from his range since he jammed so big, as lots of regs are more likely to click it back induce the top of their range in this specific spot, his jam is definately on the bigger side in terms of sizing. So with that said, even if he isn't known to be a loose player, this is a snap call.

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Just a classic example of needing to have a game plan...

If you're not three betting with the intention of getting it in preflop, why would you EVER 3 bet here? Although I find xav to be particularly spewy, I still think it's unlikely that he is 4 betting you in that light here considering you're raising from the BB on his EP open... i think he turns up 99-AA and AK almost always here, with his most likely holding being AK/QQ/JJ (I'm not sure if he would just zap in the 40 BB with 99-1010, and presumably he would 4 bet KK/AA or possibly flat). Personally, I would rarely three bet AK in this spot because despite most player's laggy perception of me, it's unlikely my opponent will ever put in much worse given the positions (EP open, BB 3 bet). Flat, under-repping your hand and play accordingly; don't give away your leverage by putting in over 40 BB with AK when you never have his range crushed.

Also, because you're over 40 BB effective it can be profitable for him to peel your 3 bet in position since he has so many chips. I know I would certainly peel there in his position unless I have something that doesn't flop well, and make your life difficult postflop.

Having said all of that, I did just notice it was 8 handed as opposed to full ring; if he has a very bad image at the table or you have any sort of dynamic with him it might be more profitable to three bet call off the jam since he may turn up AQ/AJss.

forgot to mention the sizing, as Poopshoot mentioned. As a matter of fact, knowing how xavitops plays, he will ALWAYS atleast call that 3 bet size IMO, which isn't always what you want with AK (playing a 3b pot OOP).

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People seem to have missed that we don't know anything about this particular villains style and that we just know he is good (though this deep I'm going to know people's stats and villain is actually a small loser through a large sample size). Personally I think your sizing is too small, you're giving him odds to just flat this deep and that's not what you want in this situation with these stack sizes. Your hand has more value by inticing him to get it in pre and the better way to accomplish that is by making a large raise pre to set up a simpler shove on you.

As played, I think you can take out big pairs from his range since he jammed so big, as lots of regs are more likely to click it back induce the top of their range in this specific spot, his jam is definately on the bigger side in terms of sizing. So with that said, even if he isn't known to be a loose player, this is a snap call.

LOL what?

I don't always 3-bet my monsters deep in tournaments, but when I do, I make sure I make a massive raise because I'm scurred of people flatting.

Personally, I would rarely three bet AK in this spot because despite most player's laggy perception of me, it's unlikely my opponent will ever put in much worse given the positions (EP open, BB 3 bet).

Villain is capable of 4bet/folding in this spot. 3bet with the intention of getting it in all day. When he makes the massive jam, snap it off.

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Just a classic example of needing to have a game plan...

If you're not three betting with the intention of getting it in preflop, why would you EVER 3 bet here? Although I find xav to be particularly spewy, I still think it's unlikely

Got into a spot with this player today (Xavitop).... I was UTG (7 handed) with 16 Big blinds. I shoved with 99 and got SNAPPED off by xavitop (from the CO iirc) with 22. I only remembered cuz he obviously sucked out. This was just after min cashing a random 27$ knockout. Was he doing this for the bounty?

I thought it was a misclick, but now i feel like he wanted to do this.

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First of all thanks for your thoughts guys, highly appriciated!

3bet/calling a shove was my plan in this hand, and that´s obv what I did,. He showed TT and won the flip.

I posted this hand cause i had a little discussion with 2 of my friends about this hand, and while me and another said 3bet/calling is the play here, the other guy was sure the best thing was to 3bet/fold, cause i was to deep (?) to risk my stack and xavi wouldn´t shove less than AK and JJ+. I basicly just wanted to here that i´m right, calling ;)

Personally I think your sizing is too small, you're giving him odds to just flat this deep and that's not what you want in this situation with these stack sizes. Your hand has more value by inticing him to get it in pre and the better way to accomplish that is by making a large raise pre to set up a simpler shove on you.

Very good point, i should be worried getting flatted there, and if he shoves over a bigger 3bet i have an even easier decission. But i thought the smaller 3bet could induce him to 4bet his boottom 4bet range, so i could than 5bet shove. Guess that was a little to hopeful.

Flatting with AK here most of the time and underrepping my hand is what i didnt think of a lot, but it makes completly sense. And it freaks me out, that we didn´t even think about it in our discussion. (shows we got work to do) I don´t risk all of my stack and i can evaluate on the flop.keep the pot size small when i miss and build a pot if i hit flop hard, or controll potsize if i hit a small peace of the flop .

Shows me that i of course have a lot of leaks in my game, i´ll be working on it! I´m only plaiyng in my free time, working fulltime, but i want to get better and better and really work on my game, that´s why i´m here, thanks for your help!

Excuse my english, im german, so i try the best i can ;)

Edited by Flowkid1
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i didnt read the other responses so this was probably said already, but i would say his 4b sizing is WAY too big for him to have a premium pair here ... usually in the low-mid stakes that i play this is AK or worse all too often ... its probably a bit more difficult without any reads on this guy but i personally call here and dont think twice about it, if he makes this move with a hand like AA or KK its an extraordinarily strange line and bravo to him i guess

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I agree with everything said above about having a plan and making sure you are aware of your betsizing. But in the end, as with every calling an all-in decision, this hand simply comes down to ranges and math.

If my math is right you need to call off 301592 chips to win 706784 chips. So you need 42.67% equity to break even making this call.

If AQ- is ever in your opp's range this is a snap call. If your opp is never doing this with AQ, then because you are so deep, this call is not the snap decision everyone is saying it is. Against a range of TT+/AK we don't have the requisite equity to call here.

equity win tie pots won pots tied

Hand 0: 40.392% 27.16% 13.23% 184165620 89723532.00 { AKo }

Hand 1: 59.608% 46.38% 13.23% 314459700 89723532.00 { TT+, AKs, AKo }

If we can take KK and AA out of our opp's range then it becomes a correct, but still very marginal call. I.e. this is not the high five the monitor and call situation others are making it out to be.

equity win tie pots won pots tied

Hand 0: 45.263% 29.21% 16.05% 162056880 89056686.00 { AKo }

Hand 1: 54.737% 38.68% 16.05% 214616244 89056686.00 { QQ-TT, AKs, AKo

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Just a classic example of needing to have a game plan...

If you're not three betting with the intention of getting it in preflop, why would you EVER 3 bet here? Although I find xav to be particularly spewy, I still think it's unlikely that he is 4 betting you in that light here considering you're raising from the BB on his EP open... i think he turns up 99-AA and AK almost always here, with his most likely holding being AK/QQ/JJ (I'm not sure if he would just zap in the 40 BB with 99-1010, and presumably he would 4 bet KK/AA or possibly flat). Personally, I would rarely three bet AK in this spot because despite most player's laggy perception of me, it's unlikely my opponent will ever put in much worse given the positions (EP open, BB 3 bet). Flat, under-repping your hand and play accordingly; don't give away your leverage by putting in over 40 BB with AK when you never have his range crushed.

Also, because you're over 40 BB effective it can be profitable for him to peel your 3 bet in position since he has so many chips. I know I would certainly peel there in his position unless I have something that doesn't flop well, and make your life difficult postflop.

Having said all of that, I did just notice it was 8 handed as opposed to full ring; if he has a very bad image at the table or you have any sort of dynamic with him it might be more profitable to three bet call off the jam since he may turn up AQ/AJss.

forgot to mention the sizing, as Poopshoot mentioned. As a matter of fact, knowing how xavitops plays, he will ALWAYS atleast call that 3 bet size IMO, which isn't always what you want with AK (playing a 3b pot OOP).

Oh wait, so we don't high five the monitor with AK? WOW, what a nit, we play in the internettes, we are aggggro, and this guy had badges, UMPOSSIBLE not to get in there pre, right? (facepalm).

Fantastic post Flush, really really good Hail-1.gif

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Just a classic example of needing to have a game plan...

If you're not three betting with the intention of getting it in preflop, why would you EVER 3 bet here? Although I find xav to be particularly spewy, I still think it's unlikely that he is 4 betting you in that light here considering you're raising from the BB on his EP open... i think he turns up 99-AA and AK almost always here, with his most likely holding being AK/QQ/JJ (I'm not sure if he would just zap in the 40 BB with 99-1010, and presumably he would 4 bet KK/AA or possibly flat). Personally, I would rarely three bet AK in this spot because despite most player's laggy perception of me, it's unlikely my opponent will ever put in much worse given the positions (EP open, BB 3 bet). Flat, under-repping your hand and play accordingly; don't give away your leverage by putting in over 40 BB with AK when you never have his range crushed.

Also, because you're over 40 BB effective it can be profitable for him to peel your 3 bet in position since he has so many chips. I know I would certainly peel there in his position unless I have something that doesn't flop well, and make your life difficult postflop.

Having said all of that, I did just notice it was 8 handed as opposed to full ring; if he has a very bad image at the table or you have any sort of dynamic with him it might be more profitable to three bet call off the jam since he may turn up AQ/AJss.

forgot to mention the sizing, as Poopshoot mentioned. As a matter of fact, knowing how xavitops plays, he will ALWAYS atleast call that 3 bet size IMO, which isn't always what you want with AK (playing a 3b pot OOP).

I use to play same style in general, even in EM/M stages of a tournament when my stack size is where I don't have enough space to play post flop if i miss, but I have few more questions:

How would you play same hand if there would be 1 or even 2 other players involved?

How would you play if r came from CO, BU or SB?

And could you advice play in this spot depending on stack size, thank you :)

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If there were one or two callers I would certainly 3 bet with the intention of getting it in with the original raiser or any of the flatters. If I were to 3 bet in that situation it might be viewed as a squeeze by one of my opponents, especially the original opener, so there's a better chance the four bet by xavitops could be as weak as AJ/AQ/A10s.

If the raise came from later position like the CO/BU/SB, I would 3 bet with the intention of calling off the 4 jam/5 jamming it in if he four bets.

Hope that helps.

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^^^depends a lot on table dynamics as well, some of the retarded dynamics its possible to get into makes it harder to call, but generally I'd not fold AK here.

as for sizing, I'd make it a little bigger, but not a great deal, 4.1-4.3 I think would be great here. He's UTG raising and you are 3b'ing OOP, chances are hes gunna be snapfolding, or snapshoving, his flatting range is going to be pretty small.

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I didnt play many hands with xavi, since we just got moved to the table together as we got down to 36 plyrs, so i dont have much info on him (Maybe 10-15 hands on that table, i wasn´t very active during these hands, he played like 2-3 pots)

He is obv a very good plyr, i guess a lot of you guys know him.

Avg was about 225K. Finaltable avg about 800K.

Im just not sure if it is a snap call, i got enough chips to find a better spot later on to ensure getting down to 18 plyrs and final the ft, so should i be worried about calling here?

Appreciate your thoughts.

pokerstars Game #70823212482: Tournament #547010536, $20+$2 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XXII (4000/8000) - 2011/11/20 2:18:48 CET [2011/11/19 20:18:48 ET]

Table '547010536 57' 9-max Seat #3 is the button

Seat 1: CoakerPoker (145695 in chips)

Seat 3: wanderercat (250527 in chips)

Seat 4: boyxavier (233051 in chips)

Seat 5: Flowkid1 (348592 in chips)

Seat 6: martin_malin (138040 in chips)

Seat 7: xavitop (560101 in chips)

Seat 8: augustiner83 (123284 in chips)

Seat 9: vitaminrus8 (359647 in chips)

CoakerPoker: posts the ante 800

wanderercat: posts the ante 800

boyxavier: posts the ante 800

Flowkid1: posts the ante 800

martin_malin: posts the ante 800

xavitop: posts the ante 800

augustiner83: posts the ante 800

vitaminrus8: posts the ante 800

boyxavier: posts small blind 4000

Flowkid1: posts big blind 8000

*** HOLE CARDS ***

Dealt to Flowkid1 [Ks Ad]

martin_malin: folds

xavitop: raises 8000 to 16000

augustiner83: folds

vitaminrus8: folds

CoakerPoker: folds

wanderercat: folds

boyxavier: folds

Flowkid1: raises 22200 to 38200

xavitop: raises 521101 to 559301 and is all-in

Easy call. Don't worry so much about what the average stack is. Just keep accumulating chips until the average stack size equals your stack size.

Play to win, correct? after the 3bet its a must call, just win next time

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reallllllllly have to agree with flush entity here... I think way to many people take to strong of lines with AK 3b/callin.... 3b here this deep in bb from ep raise just looks so strong to the point I highly doubt villian is ever 4b hands that ak crushes.... I think by flattin you can play an underrepped hand oop and get tons of value thru villians Ax hands that we would b normally foldin out pre.

Lotta roboting I see with AK where "its standard hand 3b/call high five etc.." but i think a lot of logic is lost in what hands were tryin to induce in certain spots. This is not the spot im tryin to 3b call with AK for value unless the history with villian dictates otherwise.

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100% agree with flush_entity there! This is ep vs bb, he wont EVER shove worse aces there. And because it's ep vs bb xavi can expect hero to snap call his shove, i def think his range is jj+ and ak (maybe even kk+ only, since jj/qq and ak doesnt crush the range hero is representing! With all the other hands i think a flat is the more logical play). Hero is representing strength! Why would he get it in with worse. I rly rather play a smallish pot oop there and even c/f the flop if necessary. Can't see the point in getting it in pre in that spot. That may sound a bit nitty but it's really pure logic. Or is anybody in this thread who get's it in with aq or worse in xavi's spot?? If u know he's good why would he do this vs a BB 3bet? That would be just stupid.

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100% agree with flush_entity there! This is ep vs bb, he wont EVER shove worse aces there. And because it's ep vs bb xavi can expect hero to snap call his shove, i def think his range is jj+ and ak (maybe even kk+ only, since jj/qq and ak doesnt crush the range hero is representing! With all the other hands i think a flat is the more logical play). Hero is representing strength! Why would he get it in with worse. I rly rather play a smallish pot oop there and even c/f the flop if necessary. Can't see the point in getting it in pre in that spot. That may sound a bit nitty but it's really pure logic. Or is anybody in this thread who get's it in with aq or worse in xavi's spot?? If u know he's good why would he do this vs a BB 3bet? That would be just stupid.

Your ranges are way off for this villain. Xavitop will shove wide here because he is a terrible, spewy player.

Edited by Pghfan987
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Your ranges are way off for this villain. Xavitop will shove wide here because he is a terrible, spewy player.

yeah think op mentioned that he's good or smth. i just OPRed him the first time and he was losing in every year since 09. thought cause he's a reg he wont ever do this but i dont know his play well, so if u say it then guess ur right. but generelly vs a reg this is rarelly profitable play except against someone who u have history with. and yeah kk+ is maybe a bit too tight, most ranges would prolly be qq+ and ak, but against a 3bet from the sb after i raised from ep i cant see how a jam with qq or ak can be profitable in xavi's seat. and i also dont think saying xavi is spewy, so 3betting is right there wont help op much, since he will come in the same spot a lot of times and maybe will make a mistake against everybody else. think the only thing op knew is that he's a reg. and against a reg i have no history with this is a flat imo, and not only vs regs, i really need a reason to 3bet ak (or maybe even qq) in that spot. if someone has no postflop skills at all a huge 3bet is maybe better dont know.

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Like I, and others have said itt, its an ez call vs xavitop. Like a snap-call. He's got a very weird game...

pokerstars Game #72507116326: Tournament #552011262, $20+$5+$2 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (150/300) - 2011/12/21 0:38:20 CET [2011/12/20 18:38:20 ET]

Table '552011262 34' 9-max Seat #8 is the button

Seat 1: PeeledFox (6960 in chips)

Seat 2: LightUrFire (3145 in chips)

Seat 3: xavitop (9300 in chips)

Seat 4: l KAAK l (3525 in chips)

Seat 5: ivanpadrino (3000 in chips)

Seat 6: ApesAreFun (7985 in chips)

Seat 8: hummylun (3155 in chips)

Seat 9: SKobold (1970 in chips)

PeeledFox: posts the ante 25

LightUrFire: posts the ante 25

xavitop: posts the ante 25

l KAAK l: posts the ante 25

ivanpadrino: posts the ante 25

ApesAreFun: posts the ante 25

hummylun: posts the ante 25

SKobold: posts the ante 25

SKobold: posts small blind 150

PeeledFox: posts big blind 300

*** HOLE CARDS ***

Dealt to ApesAreFun [Jd Ad]

LightUrFire: folds

xavitop: raises 8975 to 9275 and is all-in

l KAAK l: folds

ivanpadrino: folds

ApesAreFun: folds

hummylun: folds

SKobold: calls 1795 and is all-in

PeeledFox: folds

Uncalled bet (7330) returned to xavitop

*** FLOP *** [5h 4s Ks]

*** TURN *** [5h 4s Ks] [As]

*** RIVER *** [5h 4s Ks As] [9d]

*** SHOW DOWN ***

SKobold: shows [9h 9s] (three of a kind, Nines)

xavitop: shows [6h 6d] (a pair of Sixes)

SKobold collected 4390 from pot

*** SUMMARY ***

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First of all thanks for your thoughts guys, highly appriciated!

3bet/calling a shove was my plan in this hand, and that´s obv what I did,. He showed TT and won the flip.

I posted this hand cause i had a little discussion with 2 of my friends about this hand, and while me and another said 3bet/calling is the play here, the other guy was sure the best thing was to 3bet/fold, cause i was to deep (?) to risk my stack and xavi wouldn´t shove less than AK and JJ+. I basicly just wanted to here that i´m right, calling ;)

Very good point, i should be worried getting flatted there, and if he shoves over a bigger 3bet i have an even easier decission. But i thought the smaller 3bet could induce him to 4bet his boottom 4bet range, so i could than 5bet shove. Guess that was a little to hopeful.

Flatting with AK here most of the time and underrepping my hand is what i didnt think of a lot, but it makes completly sense. And it freaks me out, that we didn´t even think about it in our discussion. (shows we got work to do) I don´t risk all of my stack and i can evaluate on the flop.keep the pot size small when i miss and build a pot if i hit flop hard, or controll potsize if i hit a small peace of the flop .

Shows me that i of course have a lot of leaks in my game, i´ll be working on it! I´m only plaiyng in my free time, working fulltime, but i want to get better and better and really work on my game, that´s why i´m here, thanks for your help!

Excuse my english, im german, so i try the best i can ;)

yeah he has a highish pocket... the question is will he ever have AQ or worse? if not then ur flipping at best with AK. pocket + fold equity is a strong weapon in NLHE imo, he can't expect to have fold equity and i think shoving the tens there is not the best play by him. if he ever expects u to 3bet 99 or worse there then it's ok, but ive rarely seen someone doing this against an EP raiser. again, i dont know what xavi is capable of etc but i think generelly by 3betting there ur range is kinda face up and most villains will either set mine with pockets (if stack sizes allow it)/hero u down with a pocket, or fold all the worse aces in that spot or get in a range that has u crushed. by calling there someone with a "weird game" will barrel bluff into ur top top to make this a profitable play. for me this is a standard play in this spot against someone i dont have history with/against someone who i think is solid or at least wont get in a range that is worse than my 3betting range there. if xavi ever gets in AQ or worse there then i really have zero respect for that player. i dont think someone who plays regulary can be that bad... well if he gets in tens then it obv could be but with a pocket ur not dominated by AK, which is a big part of the generell 3betting range in heros spot by the standard abc player and also prolly most regs. being willing to flip for stacks (most of the time) with slight fold equity or getting in a hand that just can't be ahaed of anything is a big difference.

@apesarefun

this is prolly the 27 KO turbo? shows us again how much he loves pockets. most players on the table are short stacked, u and the other guy will obv hurt him if he gets called but he obv thinks u wont call that often and if u do there's a good chance this will end in a flip. dont think shoving there with so many shorties who im ready to flip with is that horrible. sure, even 3xing and calling a shortie would prolly be better but whatever he probably gave a shit about that tourney while playing his higher schedule (which i also do sometimes and which is a stupid leak). im not thinking what he does is good but i kinda understand why he's doing it.

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