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standard? deep in the 16.5 turbo.

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shoved mainly because I didn't want to r/f

pokerstars Hand #75326559022: Tournament #559010734, $15.00+$1.50 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XXIII (1500/3000) - 2012/02/10 13:37:49 NZT [2012/02/09 19:37:49 ET]

Table '559010734 67' 9-max Seat #3 is the button

Seat 1: Narder (50031 in chips)

Seat 2: jesse85james (42654 in chips)

Seat 3: jahbellyfull (48008 in chips)

Seat 4: KippekontNL (43538 in chips)

Seat 5: elayu23 (23794 in chips)

Seat 6: JimmietheJew (42219 in chips)

Seat 7: stone_s_g (74611 in chips)

Seat 8: jarno.mm (37066 in chips)

Narder: posts the ante 375

jesse85james: posts the ante 375

jahbellyfull: posts the ante 375

KippekontNL: posts the ante 375

elayu23: posts the ante 375

JimmietheJew: posts the ante 375

stone_s_g: posts the ante 375

jarno.mm: posts the ante 375

KippekontNL: posts small blind 1500

elayu23: posts big blind 3000

*** HOLE CARDS ***

Dealt to stone_s_g [5d 5s]

JimmietheJew: folds

stone_s_g: raises 71236 to 74236 and is all-in

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am i the only one who likes the shove? especially in that tourney where the big stack on the table has 25bb and the next blind level will lead to gambling anyway? and what's the point in shoving utg wih a 'blocker'? not 100% sure but i think even 22 is a mathematicly correct shove with 16bb effective stacks.

ok just checked it an it's a fold. thats the range: 77+ A7s+ A5s-A2s ATo+ KTs+ KJo+ QTs+ JTs.

still dont think the shove is that bad.

i mean holdemressources shows that range but how the hell is A2s-A5s a shove and 55 a fold?

http://www.holdemresources.net/hr/sngs/icmcalculator.html?action=calculate&bb=3000&sb=1500&ante=375&structure=0.5%2C0.3%2C0.2&s1=42219&s2=74611&s3=37066&s4=50031&s5=42654&s6=48008&s7=43538&s8=23794&s9=

think i made a mistake cause i didnt enter anything new in 'structure'. i figure out what to put in there and post the new range. the range i posted was for a sng.

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phew guess i was right. was afraid im just a spewy donkey. used this tool for the first time btw.

that should be the correct shoving range: 22+ A8s+ A5s ATo+ K9s+ KQo Q9s+ JTs T9s

http://www.holdemresources.net/hr/sngs/icmcalculator.html?action=calculate&bb=3000&sb=1500&ante=375&structure=1&s1=37066&s2=74611&s3=37066&s4=50031&s5=42654&s6=48008&s7=43538&s8=23794&s9=

Edited by RedIceRap
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http://www.holdemresources.net/hr/sngs/icmcalculator.html?action=calculate&bb=3000&sb=1500&ante=375&structure=0.5%2C0.3%2C0.2&s1=42219&s2=74611&s3=37066&s4=50031&s5=42654&s6=48008&s7=43538&s8=23794&s9=

think i made a mistake cause i didnt enter anything new in 'structure'. i figure out what to put in there and post the new range. the range i posted was for a sng.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

phew guess i was right. was afraid im just a spewy donkey. used this tool for the first time btw.

that should be the correct shoving range: 22+ A8s+ A5s ATo+ K9s+ KQo Q9s+ JTs T9s

http://www.holdemresources.net/hr/sngs/icmcalculator.html?action=calculate&bb=3000&sb=1500&ante=375&structure=1&s1=37066&s2=74611&s3=37066&s4=50031&s5=42654&s6=48008&s7=43538&s8=23794&s9=

even if could shvoe 22 and ATo i think these hands are def a fold for 17bb.

55 is prolly the very bottom of my range, depends how the table was playing and stuff

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How are you getting that RIR? i never used holdem resources before but all i see is a calculator for sng's. There's probably something i'm missing though.

88+ A7s+ A5s-A2s ATo+ KTs+ KJo+ QTs+ JTs < that's the range i got from my chart for M of 6 and HJ+2, almost the same as the first range you gave.

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Matze, these are +ev shoves and i tend to take every +ev spot in such a tourney with such a bad structure. I know shoving 16bb with 9Ts from utg+1 is kinda meh but if id do it at all id do it in a turbo. I think u will find urself in a stupid spot a few hands later if u skip these opportunities. Btw, the second big stack on the table has 16bb. The rest of the players has even less. Some of them will call u with like any ace. I really think just sticking to the range HER gave us is the best play here.

Peace, u have to click on nash calculater, type in the stack sizes, type '1' for structure if u dont want to take icm into account/are more than like 1 table away from the FT. The first shoving range had a 50-30-20 structure, so it was a sng where icm applies and it's better to wait for a better spot since the risk/reward ratio isnt good by shoving smth worse than 77+ etc.

Edited by RedIceRap
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im horribad at turbos results wise but... I think a jam there is bad espeicaly at thess stakes since you get called by ak aq and tonnnnnnnnns of better pairs... But i dk if redicerap says its +ev I guess I would jam...

@ redicerap: i think mcandrews ment to raise fold a blocker not to jam... So if it doenst work you still will have 15 bb... BUT dont they flat way too wide at these stakes and ur sitting there with k8s oop with 15bb...??? Dont think raise fold is anoption with all these 10bb stacksizes behind...

any turbo baller there??

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were only playing 15bb effective so with 25bb ourselves i dont see why we cant just c bet small when flatted on most boards

still have 20bb odd left.

plus deep in turbos players stop flatting so wide an give up a lot more post flop, i dont think id be raising wide in the earlier stages in similar situations, but at this point i think its profitable

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I'm raising my whole range here and re-evaluating what happens behind. 55 is not profitable to jam (low pairs don't do well at all from early position with these effective stacks) so I'm probably siding to folding in the 16.50. With the bottom of the barrel portion of your range here, I'm definately raise/folding from early position over just jamming. Lots of people aren't capable of re-raising light over an EP open, so when they jam they just have it and you can frequently get away from spots where you would have just stuck it in and let fate decide.

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i hate raise/folding with these stack sizes. i agree that the reshoving ranges will be similar to the calling ranges tho. i also hate losing 20% of my stack if i get flatted and my cbet fails. BUT im also no that good at turbos and actually hate turbos that aren't cubed or 6max. heard thelabrat is good at them so hopefully he sees this thread. i remember that everytime i passed up on such a spot im out a few hands later i had to gamble and regreted that i didnt make a move before. until now this was a more or less standard shove for me, u guys really scare the fuck out of me right now.

let's say u raise 2.25bb, pot is 4.5bb or so, 12bb stack shoves, u get 2:1, how in the hell is raise folding ever good there?? shove or fold imo, and i shoved all day so far and didnt feel like i ever regreted it. sometimes u get called by 22-44 in this tourney, most of the time ure flippin and put urself in a better spot in the tourney if u win, if u lose to whatever hand u lose about half of ur stack and prolly still have like the average stack in the tourney and still can make a run in it.

Edited by RedIceRap
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I'm raising my whole range here and re-evaluating what happens behind. 55 is not profitable to jam (low pairs don't do well at all from early position with these effective stacks) so I'm probably siding to folding in the 16.50. With the bottom of the barrel portion of your range here, I'm definately raise/folding from early position over just jamming. Lots of people aren't capable of re-raising light over an EP open, so when they jam they just have it and you can frequently get away from spots where you would have just stuck it in and let fate decide.

yeah like your thoughts... but are u good?

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i hate raise/folding with these stack sizes. i agree that the reshoving ranges will be similar to the calling ranges tho. i also hate losing 20% of my stack if i get flatted and my cbet fails. BUT im also no that good at turbos and actually hate turbos that aren't cubed or 6max. heard thelabrat is good at them so hopefully he sees this thread. i remember that everytime i passed up on such a spot im out a few hands later i had to gamble and regreted that i didnt make a move before. until now this was a more or less standard shove for me, u guys really scare the fuck out of me right now.

let's say u raise 2.25bb, pot is 4.5bb or so, 12bb stack shoves, u get 2:1, how in the hell is raise folding ever good there?? shove or fold imo, and i shoved all day so far and didnt feel like i ever regreted it. sometimes u get called by 22-44 in this tourney, most of the time ure flippin and put urself in a better spot in the tourney if u win, if u lose to whatever hand u lose about half of ur stack and prolly still have like the average stack in the tourney and still can make a run in it.

rf sux and hand sux oop thats we decided to fold pre.

i cna relate to your thoughts about busting out later with 5 bb and regretting not to jam tho...

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