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forgot2many

Was i Supossed to fold JJ here??

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hey guy, i havent this in a while, but this hand really needs some in sight from the best so here i am

So we are playing the 5$ 2R1A and we are in late stages, we are sitting with 42BB and JJ on the Big Blind, villan always raised my blind with Ax and mostly any cards really,

Passagero-LM: posts the ante 750

ForGot2Many: posts the ante 750

Biggest_Fi5h: posts the ante 750

kylo pl: posts the ante 750

rbmrenato: posts the ante 750

RpokerJ: posts the ante 750

xorepa: posts the ante 750

swifterjet: posts the ante 750

smiley411: posts the ante 750

Passagero-LM: posts small blind 3000

ForGot2Many: posts big blind 6000

*** HOLE CARDS ***

Dealt to ForGot2Many [Jc Js]

Biggest_Fi5h: folds

kylo pl: folds

rbmrenato: folds

RpokerJ: folds

xorepa: folds

swifterjet: folds

smiley411: raises 6345 to 12345

Passagero-LM: folds

ForGot2Many: raises 23655 to 36000

smiley411: calls 23655

*** FLOP *** [Jh Kc As]

ForGot2Many: bets 40875

smiley411: calls 40875

*** TURN *** [Jh Kc As] [Qh]

ForGot2Many: bets 81750

smiley411: raises 202600 to 284350 and is all-in, Hero ???

Should i give him credit for the 10 here? i know he opens alot and calling a big 3bet here i was putting him in at least AQ+

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i don't know what I'm talking about but if I was to give my 2 cents it'd be something along the lines of -

we've represented a lot of strength by 3betting cb flop & barrell turn all good strong sizing. Therefore our villain looks like he fully expects to get called (unless you two have a strong dynamic). I think it's highly likely he has a T here. A lot of hands like AT, KT, JT, QT would probably take this line & make sense given he flats our 3b pre flop.

In general, & it may not be a good thing to do, I tend to check turns that make a connected board even more connected i.e. 4 cards to straight. this is because when we DON'T have the straight it becomes difficult to get value from worse hands & we don't allow our opponent to bluff by betting. I prefer to go C/C on turn OOP & re-evaluate river.

It would be very odd for villain to be shoving here with 2 pair when the only thing he can get called by is a T - potentially you can put him on hearts (if he's a spewy lagtard).

When faced with the call or not count your outs vs a made straight already to see what price you'd need to call here. Account for some occasional spewy bluffs & decide.

Just my thoughts but in general I'd rather slow down on this turn as I don't think betting achieves but bloating the pot vs better hands, getting worse hands to fold & not giving our villain the chance to stab turn with bluffs that we can catch.

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Stack sizes are very important in this hand. Please post the full hh

he cleverly hid in his opening statement he has 42 bigs...i missed it first time too

rungoodgid.....don't know how much strength we're really repping here as this is a button raise and a bb 3b.

So we'll say we're playing 240k effective stacks here

by my crude math i think u have bout 90k behind after your turn bet. so you're getting 90k:360k for a call here ?? seem close??

so if we assume the villian has AT then ur a 20.45% to win this hand if u call the turn shove . So we are about dead even on call fold here...but this only assumes he does this with the nuts and never with 2 pair. If you think the villain could have 2 pair here than i'd call, you already have almost 2/3 of ur stack in the middle and u have about 15 blinds left if you fold ( don't get me wrong this stack is playable).

How close to FT are we?? maybe ICM considerations need to be made.

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PokerStars Hand #120251378963: Tournament #949998908, $5.00+$0.50 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XXVI (3000/6000) - 2014/08/17 18:50:07 MT [2014/08/17 20:50:07 ET]

Table '949998908 35' 9-max Seat #9 is the button

Seat 1: Passagero-LM (143318 in chips)

Seat 2: ForGot2Many (286593 in chips)

Seat 3: Biggest_Fi5h (177459 in chips)

Seat 4: kylo pl (141918 in chips)

Seat 5: rbmrenato (164141 in chips)

Seat 6: RpokerJ (87793 in chips)

Seat 7: xorepa (317083 in chips)

Seat 8: swifterjet (47550 in chips)

Seat 9: smiley411 (361975 in chips)

Passagero-LM: posts the ante 750

ForGot2Many: posts the ante 750

Biggest_Fi5h: posts the ante 750

kylo pl: posts the ante 750

rbmrenato: posts the ante 750

RpokerJ: posts the ante 750

xorepa: posts the ante 750

swifterjet: posts the ante 750

smiley411: posts the ante 750

Passagero-LM: posts small blind 3000

ForGot2Many: posts big blind 6000

*** HOLE CARDS ***

Dealt to ForGot2Many [Jc Js]

Biggest_Fi5h: folds

kylo pl: folds

rbmrenato: folds

RpokerJ: folds

xorepa: folds

swifterjet: folds

smiley411: raises 6345 to 12345

Passagero-LM: folds

ForGot2Many: raises 23655 to 36000

smiley411: calls 23655

*** FLOP *** [Jh Kc As]

ForGot2Many: bets 40875

smiley411: calls 40875

*** TURN *** [Jh Kc As] [Qh]

ForGot2Many: bets 81750

smiley411: raises 202600 to 284350 and is all-in

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Well, as played it's a call because even vs a ten and him having a blocker, like ATo, you're getting the right price to call being 126k more to win 444k it's about 3.5:1. You have 24% equity and you need about 22% vs [TT,ATs,KTs,QTs,JTs,T9s,ATo,KTo,QTo,JTo,T9o], and those are all hands that are a straight. I think I'm check calling the turn here. You can make an argument for betting the turn, because you can get value from worse hands, like KQ, AQ, etc, but I think with your sizing, you can't bet/fold the turn. If you are betting the turn I think you need to go smaller. Making it 55k gives you room to fold the turn, because when he shoves you're getting 2.73:1 (153k to win 417k) and you need 27% to break even there.

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thats alot of math i need to learn for sure :D , but yea i made the bet half pot, because i knew he would not fold any A there has he didnt before, we had history from previous hands

with your read that villian is not capable of folding an A with that board I'm never folding.. your average donk should be able to fold a half pot bet into that turn with just an A

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Pokerduude's 2nd post is right on the money.

@pokerduude -> So isn't checking turn with intention of calling a small bet DEF best vs a) as played and getting the right price to call but needing a lot of help high % of the time or b) betting small & havng to fold to a jam losing any equity we have in the hand.

i.e. if we check turn maybe villain only bets small giving us a good rpice to fill up on the river & b) some villains might slowplay a T on the turn hoping we stack off on the river.

???

Also - if we CAN get value from worse (2pair / sets) on the turn then we can probably still get value from then on the river. Although I'm not sure I'd bet river if it goes check/check turn.

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Yeah, agree with pokerdude. @rungood, you pretty much summed it up. It's better to c/c turn since we're rarely getting value on turn + river vs 2 pair hands. So a c/c doesn't lose value since we can often get it on the river anyway. At the same time c/c allows us to a call a turn bet with boat equity and since villain has some bluff/thin value range, we may also be ahead. Issue is that if villain bets really big, we don't have the right equity to call and need to start deciding whether villain has the nuts or is possibly bluffing/thin value betting and weighting those ranges accordingly.

Overall though, I'd rather make that decision than either b/f or b/c in a very close spot.

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Well, as played it's a call because even vs a ten and him having a blocker, like ATo, you're getting the right price to call being 126k more to win 444k it's about 3.5:1. You have 24% equity and you need about 22% vs [TT,ATs,KTs,QTs,JTs,T9s,ATo,KTo,QTo,JTo,T9o], and those are all hands that are a straight. I think I'm check calling the turn here. You can make an argument for betting the turn, because you can get value from worse hands, like KQ, AQ, etc, but I think with your sizing, you can't bet/fold the turn. If you are betting the turn I think you need to go smaller. Making it 55k gives you room to fold the turn, because when he shoves you're getting 2.73:1 (153k to win 417k) and you need 27% to break even there.

this post is spot on. you really can't fold now.

the question is, should you be betting the turn. i think that vs a lot of opponents you can pretty safely check the turn here. a lot of players are pretty happy to go to a river when they have 2 pair and just try to get to showdown, and people generally don't turn hands into bluffs often enough for you to run into problems here.

you say he doens't seem like the type to fold any A here, if that's true then you do need to be betting. it sucks when he shoves, but idk, i guess this is a bet/call then? it feels awkward, i'm honestly not convinced of your read, but,yeah...

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1.When u check the flop, u insert bluffs into his range.

2.U called his river ship so result from calling turn ship is the same.

3.Most folks don't ship the turn in this spot, they value bet. They dont

wanna let u off the hook that easy. Which in turn gives u outs on the

river or just showdown value.

4.I really prefer the chk/rse allin on flop. If he checks behind,

chk/call all the way if a scare card comes. You'll prolly only lose

half ur stack instead of all of it. Its a variation of pot control

in nl cash games.

}>><<<}>>

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A good question is, what happens if/when the opponent shoves the turn if/when you check? That is a tricky situation.

point 3 is the likely answer. If he ships the turn u can fold with about 200k left in ur stack. Just because u have a set doesn't mean u have to lose a big pot.

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i put six BB in pre, and 7 on the flop, have 30 BB behind.

and i flopped a set.

the fuck if i'm EVER getting away from this spot on any turn or river.

maybe if we both check the turn and river makes a 4 flush board i have no piece of i could fold to a shove, or a disconnect or earthquake, death or apocalypse.. or site fails.. pretty much those spots i could fold only...

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1.When u check the flop, u insert bluffs into his range.

2.U called his river ship so result from calling turn ship is the same.

3.Most folks don't ship the turn in this spot, they value bet. They dont

wanna let u off the hook that easy. Which in turn gives u outs on the

river or just showdown value.

4.I really prefer the chk/rse allin on flop. If he checks behind,

chk/call all the way if a scare card comes. You'll prolly only lose

half ur stack instead of all of it. Its a variation of pot control

in nl cash games.

}>><<<}>>

^^^^ this...

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its just an alternate way to play the hand and stay alive. I would rather get my stack in way ahead than way behind the way our hero did. I have taken similar lines and the look on villians face is priceless- they never saw it comin when they bluff off. If you shut people out of enough pots they will call u when u hit ur monster. Open ur mind, the flop cbet is not carved in stone.

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