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Gabesaurus

Deep ITM (170ish left) 2 big stacks (top 20) in The Big $3.30

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Only 19 hands with this opponent.

[pokercube=8f7da/pocketfives][/pokercube]

Pokerstars

Hold'em No Limit - Level XIX - Tournament #955656529 - $3.00+$0.30 USD 600/1200

Hero's cards J J

Preflop

Hero Post Ante 150, UTG+1 Post Ante 150, UTG+2 Post Ante 150, UTG+3 Post Ante 150, Hijack Post Ante 150, Cutoff Post Ante 150, Dealer Post Ante 150, Small Blind Post Ante 150, Big Blind Post Ante 150, Small Blind Post SB 600, Big Blind Post BB 1200, Hero Raise 2700, UTG+1 Folds, UTG+2 Folds, UTG+3 Folds, Hijack Folds, Cutoff Folds, Dealer Raise 6500, Small Blind Folds, Big Blind Folds, Hero Call 6500

Flop 6 T 7

Hero Check 0, Dealer Bet 8400

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I'm not that experienced but this is what I'd be thinking - take it with a pinch of salt.

19 hands is a very small sample so can't rely on HUD stats too much. Having said that, I think if he's 3b a few times already, (expecially IP) rather than this being the 1st hand he's played & he's 3betting an UTG open, then we can naturally give him a wider range than just JJ+, AK.

In this spot I don't think there is any play other than flatting cb. Raising doesn't achieve anything IMO other than bloating the pot vs better hands & folding out his bluffs. Maybe we can get value from Tx but how many Tx hands is he 3betting pre flop in this spot.

I'm going C/C flop & on a lot of turns will do the same. It's rare that people 3 barrell with air once they've been stationed twice. Also, really depends on board run out like if a spade comes on the turn he could decide to barrel with AsKx type hands.

I think you'll get better analysis from some other players on here. GL

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I'd say villain's range is AK, TT+ (maybe AQs).

The 3-bet PF is decently sized, and doesn't give us much info.

The continuation bet is slightly over half pot, which suggests he wants to protect his hand (I think we can remove AA/KK/TT, as these hands would probably bet smaller 40-45% to induce). This leaves AK/QQ (since you already have the Js).

You have 2 options:

3-bet large enough to fold out AK: 22k+

Call Flop and Re-evaluate Turn

If you 3-bet the flop and he shoves, I definitely think you are beat (most likely QQ). If he calls the 3-bet, he probably has AK, and you should shove the Turn (if no A or K falls).

If you call flop and he leads out for 1/3rd pot on Turn (if a rag), I'd probably just call Turn and River and hope he flips AK.

If you call flop and he leads out for 2/3rd pot on Turn, I'd say he has QQ.

If you call flop and he checks, I'd check back and call all rivers with no A or K.

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I'm not that experienced but this is what I'd be thinking - take it with a pinch of salt.

19 hands is a very small sample so can't rely on HUD stats too much. Having said that, I think if he's 3b a few times already, (expecially IP) rather than this being the 1st hand he's played & he's 3betting an UTG open, then we can naturally give him a wider range than just JJ+, AK.

In this spot I don't think there is any play other than flatting cb. Raising doesn't achieve anything IMO other than bloating the pot vs better hands & folding out his bluffs. Maybe we can get value from Tx but how many Tx hands is he 3betting pre flop in this spot.

I'm going C/C flop & on a lot of turns will do the same. It's rare that people 3 barrell with air once they've been stationed twice. Also, really depends on board run out like if a spade comes on the turn he could decide to barrel with AsKx type hands.

I think you'll get better analysis from some other players on here. GL

I really like this post. Before reading it my advice was going to c/c flop + reeval turn.

Raising folds out his air. If you raise to 20-24k and he jams, it's kind of gross since he could do it as a semibluff, overpair, combo draw, etc so it's pretty close to a flip...which seems unnecessary with 70bbs behind on the flop. I'd call most turns and then fold most rivers if villain 3bs at this level.

Against more competent regs at higher stakes where triple barrel bluffs are more likely, it's close and depends a lot on sizing + board texture. I could see folding some turns as well as calling a lot of rivers...but at those stakes I'm less likely to c/c turn and c/f river since it becomes very exploitable since our range is fairly easily defined here by a competent hand reader.

overall, c/c flop every time and re-eval on future streets

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I'd say villain's range is AK, TT+ (maybe AQs).

The 3-bet PF is decently sized, and doesn't give us much info.

The continuation bet is slightly over half pot, which suggests he wants to protect his hand (I think we can remove AA/KK/TT, as these hands would probably bet smaller 40-45% to induce). This leaves AK/QQ (since you already have the Js).

You have 2 options:

3-bet large enough to fold out AK: 22k+

Call Flop and Re-evaluate Turn

If you 3-bet the flop and he shoves, I definitely think you are beat (most likely QQ). If he calls the 3-bet, he probably has AK, and you should shove the Turn (if no A or K falls).

If you call flop and he leads out for 1/3rd pot on Turn (if a rag), I'd probably just call Turn and River and hope he flips AK.

If you call flop and he leads out for 2/3rd pot on Turn, I'd say he has QQ.

If you call flop and he checks, I'd check back and call all rivers with no A or K.

people keep raising this post so i thought it would be worth commenting. a lot of this is not actually good advice. there's really no point in all in raising the flop. if we raise the flop he is going to fold all of his bluffs, and only continue when he has hands better than ours. this is not what we want. also, how can you make the assumption that when he calls the flop he has AK? he can have a large number of other hands, and we definitely don't always have the best hand still. it's just really bad logic to be raising to "find out where you're at" in a hand.

our opponent 3b the button, he can have JJ+AK or he can have some bluffs (suited connectors, some face card combos, perhaps some AXs hands)...play against his whole range here

anyway, as played, following with what i just said about playing against his whole range, the answer on the flop is definitely just call. we keep him in with all his bluffs. you're kind of handcuffed here because if we get in all our chips nad he has QQ+ then it's a huge disaster for us because of how deep we are. we definitely want to try to keep this pot as small as possible and go from there and evaluate turn based on sizing and timing.

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people keep raising this post so i thought it would be worth commenting. a lot of this is not actually good advice. there's really no point in all in raising the flop. if we raise the flop he is going to fold all of his bluffs, and only continue when he has hands better than ours. this is not what we want. also, how can you make the assumption that when he calls the flop he has AK? he can have a large number of other hands, and we definitely don't always have the best hand still. it's just really bad logic to be raising to "find out where you're at" in a hand.

our opponent 3b the button, he can have JJ+AK or he can have some bluffs (suited connectors, some face card combos, perhaps some AXs hands)...play against his whole range here

anyway, as played, following with what i just said about playing against his whole range, the answer on the flop is definitely just call. we keep him in with all his bluffs. you're kind of handcuffed here because if we get in all our chips nad he has QQ+ then it's a huge disaster for us because of how deep we are. we definitely want to try to keep this pot as small as possible and go from there and evaluate turn based on sizing and timing.

I'm pretty curious how you would play the next two streets with JJ. Any A,K,Q,T, 9, 8 or spade is bad news for us. On top of that JJ is almost never improving going into the river.

If a brick falls on the turn (which is pretty unlikely) and villain bets half-pot, are we continuing to call?

If one of the trouble cards fall (let's say Ks) and it's checked to us, do we bet into the villain?

I think by not re-raising the flop, we are letting villain improve too many hands against us or possibly value betting 2 more streets with a better holding.

I think on the flop we need to fold out all weaker hands because we need to win this pot right now and avoid going to showdown with such a weak holding. There are just too many hands that will have us beat by the river.

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I don't really think all those cards are actually bad news. They may slightly complicate the hand, but they aren't all terrible for us.

First of all, there's a difference between villains range and what you're giving him. Unless he's a super nit, he has the same value range you assigned but also a good amount of random stuff.

Second, there's a difference between our hand and our perceived range. Villain has only seen us flat the 3b out of position when fairly deep stacked. It's a spot where we can easily have suited connectors, draws, pairs, sets, etc. Unless he has the top of his range or air, he's going to have to think about pot control on some streets since.

Going through the potential scare cards on the turn:

Spades: sure, there's a chance villain 3b with suited cards and flopped a FD. However, there's plenty of offsuit combos and non spade combos that he 3b and cbet with. If villain doesn't have spades, a spade can actually help our perceived range, so he's more likely to slow down with hands like QQ+ without a spade.

Tx, 9x, 8x: very similar. Villain can occasionally have hands like AT, KT, QT as well as some suited connectors like T9, 87, etc. So if a T/9/8 peels, it's potentially bad for us. At the same time, if villain has something like QQ+, this improves our perceived range since we can flat pre with a lot of suited connectors and villain has to start thinking about pot control so that he doesn't get c/r on the turn and have to make a tough decision.

A/K/Q: yeah...not the greatest cards for us since it improves some of his air range and is easy to bluff with if he missed. But that's less than 1/4 of the deck.

If the plan is to c/r and put another 12-15bbs in the pot, we're bloating it and still face difficult decisions. If villain has Axss, KQss/97ss/87ss, etc he's going to 3b shove the flop. The same is probably true with 98 and hands like T9, T8, 97, 87, 86, etc. Since the spade combo draws and straight combo draw hands are in his range (perhaps not every combo, but there are some), if we c/r flop we should be calling a shove. This commits our entire stack when we're crushed by some of his range and flipping vs his strong combo draws.

As to the turn, let's assume villain bets about half pot again. We're faced with a bet of 16k -- that's only 2-3k more than you were planning to bet on the flop -- and we can reevaluate at that point. We get some check backs when our perceived range is improved making it such that we get to showdown for the same price as a flop c/r (assuming a river bet). We get plenty of blank turns that we don't have to worry about and c/c comfortably (nothing wrong with calling turn for same price as raising flop). We get some bad turn cards and I probably c/c most of those and c/f river since most villains at low stakes won't triple barrel bluff. (I'd play turn and river differently vs good HS regs.)

Overall, the point I was making in my post and gags has made is that we have to play against the villains entire range -- which is going to be part premium hands and weaker hands like b'way and suited connectors/gappers. If we c/r flop, we give the part of that range that may have connected the opportunity to 3b shove a combo draw -- this prices us in to call a shove and becomes a marginal spot that's super high variance. Instead, we can c/c most turns for the same price and have more information on future streets that allow us to make the best decision.

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I like flatting pre, and would be check calling this flop. I don't like raising because against his GII range I doubt you have 40%. You both are super deep so just play passively and get value from his bluffs. He most likely shuts down on the river and checks back a lot of value hands as well, so you can usually get to showdown in 2 streets.

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i read through these responses like gags and wasn't satisfied with any of the answers. so i looked at the EV of my line which is to 4b pre to 12.5BB (15k) which is profitable if villain folds 55% and need 42% equity (AA-JJ,AK/AQ) to call an all-in where I'm most likely folding since i'd weight him more to the top end shoving this deep (AA-QQ/AK) against an UTG 4B at 36% equity and EV of -8.7BB. it becomes a clear fold with 170 remaining and a very thin high variance spot. So in the end I end up losing 12.5BB, the minimum, instead of risking up to half my stack against the table CL with an ambiguous hand OOP to showdown? what's so bad with 4b/f other than losing the flopped set potential?

As far as how it's played, i agree with gags/tyson that c/c is best for pot control. it's just so wet with over half the deck (AKQT98 or spade) all terrible cards for hero that bloating it OOP and possibly getting raised off our equity is a mistake. hero must also consider the potential that villain checks behind AA-QQ when an 8, 9, J or spade come on the turn and perhaps turn our hand into a bluff when necessary.

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There are two reasons I don't like a 4b/f

1) You're committing an additional 12.5k to the pot. I'd rather flat pre for 6.5k (total) and call 8.4k on the flop. It commits the same amount of chips to the pot, keeps all villains air/weaker hands in and we get a flop + turn for the same price. I'd rather flat and play a semi-difficult hand vs a button 3b range than 4b/f pre (or 4b/get flatted).

2) You assume a max loss of 15k. That doesn't account for villain flatting pre. Perhaps villain flats wide in this spot, perhaps he traps, perhaps he does a lot of stuff...but the 4b line will get a flatted a non-trivial % of the time. In the big 3.30, I can see villain having some weird hands in his range, meaning we should usually be c-betting. Since we're cbetting into a 30k pot, I disagree that our downside is capped at 15k.

I can potentially see arguing the merit of flatting vs. 4betting as a value line. However, as a lower variance/stack protection line, I don't think it accomplishes the goal you want.

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If this is pokerstars... then did you google the screen name? seems like you could sharkscope or something really fast find out a lot of what he's capable of right away... see how many of those bluffs gags refers to are in his range...

that said.. i agree with everything gags said, and i didn't read any of the other replies.. seemed like way too much dialougue for a post that asked zero questions...

since you didn't ask any questions... my only thought was... "what is he asking... how to play JJ, how to play poker?" then i scanned everybody else's replies and saw all these "ranges.." you're deepstacked late in a stars tournament against the button. his range is anything...

which brings me to the only vaid point i'll offer.

>You are DEEPSTACKED...

>You are EP...

>This makes the antes meh... and now JJ is a marginal hand... play it that way from the jump...

Exercise some pot control, sometimes it's not nitty. when it get your opponents to overplay their hands, instead of you overplaying yours, then it's good strategy...

if you're not so deepstacked, or you're running over the table, forcing everybody to play their hands straight up... play JJ strong... when you open and you're primary plan is uncertainly... maybe then is the the time to exercise pot control... play a little position... those things...

let's take another look... so i just looked at all the stacks and definitely want to open this hand and try to get all in preflop against all the players except the btn. i'm not in love with 30 BB against UTG+2 but fuck it, he's got too much 66-TT in his range and AK, AQ, AJs, etc.

that said, i still agree Gags advice is solid, but there is NOTHING wrong with check folding this spot...

>Your OOP against..

>The only player who can hurt you..

>And have no reads...

>You in a $3.30 with a potential edge on the field..

>A healthy stack clearly above the chip average..

>And lot of chances to get in ahead of the other stacks ranges. You're in a spot you can accumulate chips..

Yeah, his button 3b is suspect and includes a lot.. but you have no reads... you're gonna pay him because you don't know him? lacks sense... especially in a spot you look so good already...

here..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5SoipxjjGw

i still think i'm check calling.. not check folding... ben lamb had reads on his opponent and didn't have to make a call on the river.. you may not have had that luxury and also had no reads... lamb also had KK not JJ

i wonder if lamb would have shoved the river... repped a set? hmm.... think he would have tanked the turn a bit to set that move up... he seemed like he was in a "hurry" to get out of that hand...

i don't think 4b is bad.. if the 3b is to determine whether your on a big ace or 88-QQ type hand... meaning button is either strong or trying to see if you weak.. so.. if he's strong, he should 5b, if he's weak, he folds, he may flat AK, QQ, not hands you play well against on a lot of boards... so there is some strategy to that... the 3b is "somewhat polarized" between a really strong hand and btn move with a wide range... if you 4b you rep a strong hand and really take away a lot of moves / fold equity / being outplayed... and you get information too.. but what info do you really get? could flat AQ, TT, QQ, AK, all in his 4b flatting range, and you're not really strong against that range... and any PP can call you too.. so when you do flop an overpair.. you're still playing a high variance pot with anything not JJJ...

4/b pre flop could get checks on two streets... it's not bad for pot control either.. if villain has a medium pair or medium ace he could play it for value post flop... it's not always a shove fest on the flop...

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I really like calling his cbet. It's doubtful he has spades and without any real number of hands we really don't know his 3b range. Some lagtards open real wide but 3b extremely tight while others 3b their whole open range. I think calling gives some pot control and keeps villains bluff ranges in. I don't think if a spade hits it's bad...as i said doubtful he has spades. I really think the only real scare card is an Ace. Most loose 3b inexperienced players seem to love 3b'ing any ace. So I think their range is slightly weighted to Ax. I check call flop and check call turn if it's any card other than an Ace....i may c/f turn if an ace hits depending on villains reaction to it.

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I can potentially see arguing the merit of flatting vs. 4betting as a value line. However, as a lower variance/stack protection line, I don't think it accomplishes the goal you want.

i agree it's not lower variance but to me it's a matter of simplification since the goal is not to go to showdown by taking the most aggressive line possible from a position where my range is usually the top 5% and should make villain uncomfortable. since my range here is typically AA-TT/AQ+ and i'm the aggressor, it makes playing postflop simpler. in the case of JJ, i'll face overs 60% of the time at the flop and typically shutdown against resistance losing an avg cbet of 11.5BB. when villain flats AA-KK it only increases his equity postflop by 7.5% with say a range of AA-QQ/AQ+ (57/43) vs QQ/AQ+ (50/50) but we flop a set higher percentage than that and win more pots as the aggressor to negate that edge.

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i don't think 4b is bad.. if the 3b is to determine whether your on a big ace or 88-QQ type hand... meaning button is either strong or trying to see if you weak.. so.. if he's strong, he should 5b, if he's weak, he folds, he may flat AK, QQ, not hands you play well against on a lot of boards... so there is some strategy to that... the 3b is "somewhat polarized" between a really strong hand and btn move with a wide range... if you 4b you rep a strong hand and really take away a lot of moves / fold equity / being outplayed... and you get information too.. but what info do you really get? could flat AQ, TT, QQ, AK, all in his 4b flatting range, and you're not really strong against that range... and any PP can call you too.. so when you do flop an overpair.. you're still playing a high variance pot with anything not JJJ...

4/b pre flop could get checks on two streets... it's not bad for pot control either.. if villain has a medium pair or medium ace he could play it for value post flop... it's not always a shove fest on the flop...

a big part of the reason i 4bet here is because better regs know that UTG is a popular place to steal since it reps a narrow range and a deep stacked villain is certainly capable of 3betting light. sure we can play pot control for value but we also increase our margin for error with a hand that doesn't play well post in a passive manner. even if he flats, the SPR is poor (2:1) and we still profit as long as villain folds an 11.5BB cbet (40% of pot) at least 29% of the time when i'd expect it to be more around 65% at an EV of 14.5BB. if he happens to shove hero needs 36% equity for the remaining 49BB which should be easy to ascertain at the flop with 60% chance of an overcard and perceived range of TT+/AQ+

from villain's perspective, i'd much rather hero flat JJ than 4b since most of my 3b range is weighted towards unpaired overcards

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i agree it's not lower variance but to me it's a matter of simplification since the goal is not to go to showdown by taking the most aggressive line possible from a position where my range is usually the top 5% and should make villain uncomfortable. since my range here is typically AA-TT/AQ+ and i'm the aggressor, it makes playing postflop simpler. in the case of JJ, i'll face overs 60% of the time at the flop and typically shutdown against resistance losing an avg cbet of 11.5BB. when villain flats AA-KK it only increases his equity postflop by 7.5% with say a range of AA-QQ/AQ+ (57/43) vs QQ/AQ+ (50/50) but we flop a set higher percentage than that and win more pots as the aggressor to negate that edge.

Yeah...seems like flawed logic to me to be honest. You're committing as many chips as you would commit with a c/c flop and c/c turn. On top of that, you're folding preflop and passing up on all that money in the pot fairly often.

I don't see the point of aiming for simplicity and ease of play when that line puts us in a lot of awkward spots and actually makes the turn/river more difficult to play. I think the goal of a hand should be to make money and when you have a strong but not nutted hand, to get to showdown and have a chance to win.

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i have to question those who are tying to keep "bluff ranges in..." are these the dynamics you're looking for? your plan to ship the tourney was to bluff catch 70 BB with JJ, or to fold away half your stack on the river with JJ and make it up in volume... Looks like flatting his bluff range is setting you up for a hero fold, or a hero call.... is that a spot you need to take now to maximize your LT $EV?

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a big part of the reason i 4bet here is because better regs know that UTG is a popular place to steal since it reps a narrow range and a deep stacked villain is certainly capable of 3betting light. sure we can play pot control for value but we also increase our margin for error with a hand that doesn't play well post in a passive manner. even if he flats, the SPR is poor (2:1) and we still profit as long as villain folds an 11.5BB cbet (40% of pot) at least 29% of the time when i'd expect it to be more around 65% at an EV of 14.5BB. if he happens to shove hero needs 36% equity for the remaining 49BB which should be easy to ascertain at the flop with 60% chance of an overcard and perceived range of TT+/AQ+

from villain's perspective, i'd much rather hero flat JJ than 4b since most of my 3b range is weighted towards unpaired overcards

take another look at the stacks, a better reg should not be stealing there... yes, it does rep a narrow range, which is worthless and just bad play against 5 shoving stacks... that move works best 7 or 8 handed when all the stacks are either nutted or small enough to shove super wide and give you good odds. these stacks aren't ones you can call really wide, but could shove a fairly wide range, forcing a calling error from you, or a r/f that could have been avoided...

i guess the fact that the SB and BB are the shortest stacks does widen and narrow the range... meaning somebody who usually wouldn't open ATo or 77 may open from there to try to play one of the blinds HU... but you know they aren't raising J9cc either... they likely think that you think what you have is ahead of SB shoving range at a minimum... and probably ahead UTG+1 +3 and HJ too... because i can't see r/f or r/c against them profitably lite long-term...

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Yeah...seems like flawed logic to me to be honest. You're committing as many chips as you would commit with a c/c flop and c/c turn. On top of that, you're folding preflop and passing up on all that money in the pot fairly often.

I don't see the point of aiming for simplicity and ease of play when that line puts us in a lot of awkward spots and actually makes the turn/river more difficult to play. I think the goal of a hand should be to make money and when you have a strong but not nutted hand, to get to showdown and have a chance to win.

the key difference is i'm generating bigger pots and making the fold equity more relevant and villain's continuing value range more narrow. simplicity is a poor description because although the decisions are clearly very profitable or very unprofitable it's completely dependent upon the precision of hero's ability to decide correctly when faced with a committal action but to get there i've given villain an additional 1-2 opportunities to fold away his equity vs flatting the 3b.

not for the feint of heart but it works for me

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take another look at the stacks, a better reg should not be stealing there... yes, it does rep a narrow range, which is worthless and just bad play against 5 shoving stacks

completely disagree, this is perfect opportunity to use an unbalanced range to exploit weak UTG deep stacked heros, especially given the advice here to flat as strong as JJ

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the key difference is i'm generating bigger pots and making the fold equity more relevant and villain's continuing value range more narrow. simplicity is a poor description because although the decisions are clearly very profitable or very unprofitable it's completely dependent upon the precision of hero's ability to decide correctly when faced with a committal action but to get there i've given villain an additional 1-2 opportunities to fold away his equity vs flatting the 3b.

not for the feint of heart but it works for me

let's be fair...you're generating bigger pots on the flop. that doesn't translate into anything meaningful.

making ranges narrow isn't necessarily good either. especially when those continuing ranges are ahead of your range.

fold equity also seems irrelevant here - what are you trying to get fold? The hands that beat you like QQ+? the hands you beat and are worse? i don't really see how "making the fold equity more relevant" is sensible in general and definitely not in this specific spot.

Anyway, I'm done with this hand. I hate the line you're proposing, but whatever you think works for you...

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completely disagree, this is perfect opportunity to use an unbalanced range to exploit weak UTG deep stacked heros, especially given the advice here to flat as strong as JJ

well i guess if UTG is repping a hand a hand that says, "i'm ready to play 5 of you for stacks..." and then BTN reps a hand that says, "yeah, i don't care, i'll play anyone for stacks..." then sure... you can out play some UTG players opening wide or with AQ / AK, JJ / QQ or worse, especially one tying to ISO the blinds...

i just think the problem is... unless you know hero is opening wide... his range is going to be too narrow for that play to work profitably in the long run... with those stacks... i'm forced to assign UTG a narrow range.. it doesn't appear to be a spot where villain would open wide, and i have no history of villain opening wide...

so i'm not saying you can't outplay the UTG player here 3betting from the button... i'm just not sure you can do it profitably in the long run... maybe you can...

what makes you 3b lite here? just the fact that you have the button and you're both deep stacked? those are the only two dynamics you need to 3b lite? or are you seeing something else i'm not?

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what makes you 3b lite here? just the fact that you have the button and you're both deep stacked? those are the only two dynamics you need to 3b lite? or are you seeing something else i'm not?

i typically wouldn't 3b the UTG raiser light unless he's been raising heavily from UTG/EP or i have significant history on him to know he folds to 3b too much and/or has weaknesses in his flat vs 3b range.

fwiw, ivey folded his UTG JJ raise to a BTN 3b from 2.25BB to 8BB playing 30BB deep at the 2009 WSOP ME FT

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did some research on this because it's been an oft-debated situation i've heard over and over again. some say they play them like 9s, i think elky stated in raiser's edge that TT is better than JJ (maybe in sarcastically). regardless though i came across this video, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaeUMDtwkMA, by hasseb quershi (well-known high stakes player) where he basically says it's one of those hands that put you in a lot of close, tough decisions and how to play these hands is to get better "at everything else", in essence...poker.

i completely agree, and even mentioned the precision of the decisions being so paramount to success of my line since the pot sizes become larger. there's no one size fits all but the most common line seems to be pot control while i (typically highest AF/AFq at the table, in the 70-80% range) prefer to 4b/f to give villain many opportunities to fold, preserve my table image, discourage future 3b, and give villains the tough commital decisions when they're at the lower end of their range. i would surmise any highly skilled player would want bigger pots to maximize their edge and EV, and that's basically my approach, at the expense of higher variance.

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aggressive poker is winning poker.. so i see nothing wrong with 4b "in spots like this as a general rule.."

but... "spots like this..." is narrowly definable.. only describable... there are more than a quadrillion hand possibilities... they aren't alike only similar and need be played individually.. the best line for this hand, not hands like this..

for this hand.. the two bigs really have no business tangling.. the dynamics already favor both of you. poker is about shifting gears, and here, you're just sort of being patient looking to get it in ahead of the shorter stacks' ranges. and most of what you're doing really is trying to range each player, pick up information, and adapt quickly and profitably to all the dynamics as they shift, also establish your own image and set up profitable spots against certain players. "tangling" with the other big stack, without a solid read, doesn't seem necessary or optimal here. i think if you have a read that he's a solid player, it get's harder to get paid off by set mining, so 4b a competent reg more often, but without reads, hope you flop JJJ and get everything, or he punts something nice away with garbage post flop..

another thing about 4betting is... it gets a lot of spazz shoves from AK, AQs, TT, 99... donkeys and tilters.. hate folding to that range..

i still agree that 4/b does handcuff vilain and take away alot of moves post flop. if he thinks you may be nutted he has to doubt he can get a fold.. and can also fold QQ on some boards... so i don't think 4/b here is hard to do profitably, just maybe to optimal line for this spot..

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aggressive poker is winning poker.. so i see nothing wrong with 4b "in spots like this as a general rule.."

but... "spots like this..." is narrowly definable.. only describable... there are more than a quadrillion hand possibilities... they aren't alike only similar and need be played individually.. the best line for this hand, not hands like this..

for this hand.. the two bigs really have no business tangling.. the dynamics already favor both of you. poker is about shifting gears, and here, you're just sort of being patient looking to get it in ahead of the shorter stacks' ranges. and most of what you're doing really is trying to range each player, pick up information, and adapt quickly and profitably to all the dynamics as they shift, also establish your own image and set up profitable spots against certain players. "tangling" with the other big stack, without a solid read, doesn't seem necessary or optimal here. i think if you have a read that he's a solid player, it get's harder to get paid off by set mining, so 4b a competent reg more often, but without reads, hope you flop JJJ and get everything, or he punts something nice away with garbage post flop..

another thing about 4betting is... it gets a lot of spazz shoves from AK, AQs, TT, 99... donkeys and tilters.. hate folding to that range..

i still agree that 4/b does handcuff vilain and take away alot of moves post flop. if he thinks you may be nutted he has to doubt he can get a fold.. and can also fold QQ on some boards... so i don't think 4/b here is hard to do profitably, just maybe to optimal line for this spot..

spots like this = top 20 stacks 80BB+ deep, first encounter against unknown in mid stage

surely we can play exploitative poker with history against nits with smaller 3B ranges but my main line is 4b unless i have reason for warning. and once i 4B most regs rarely continue against without QQ+. one of my -ev traits is to sometimes play in tournaments just to mess around with no intention of playing it out and will spew decently sized stacks to find out how test regs ranges all-in with suited connectors and weak suited aces. they're were never light in 4B+ pots on ACR > 40BB past re-entry with a small sample size of 3-5. in 3b pots ranges are much wider even from nits at the FT who will dbl and triple barrel which is not where i want to be with JJ.

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