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samj123

4 left - butchered postflop play with 87s blind on blind

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Position Name Stack

CO 5,490,461 (54.9 bb)

BTN 669,146 (6.7 bb)

SB Hero 3,397,546 (34 bb)

BB 5,802,847 (58 bb)

Stakes/Buy-In: $5+$0.50

Players: 4

Preflop: Hero is SB with 7 of diamonds 8 of diamonds

2 folds, Hero raises to 200,000, BB calls 100,000

Flop: (460,000) J of hearts 5 of diamonds 4 of diamonds (2 players)

Hero bets 200,000, BB raises to 555,555, Hero calls 355,555

Turn: (1,571,110) 7 of spades (2 players)

Hero checks, BB bets 633,333

Hero???

opponent postflop aggression 35%. I feel I completely butchered this one postflop because I didn´t want to risk my stack with the shortstack with 7bb on the otherhand he was good enough to put pressure on me with the shorties present.

What would have been the best way to play the flop & turn?

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Id just gii when he raises you on flop.

Yeah but you Suffolk lot are more aggro than us Norfolk folk!!

I did consider GII but I thought he would CR with a Jx /set/better flush draw OR bluff and

1) I wasn´t sure how much MORE equity I needed due to ICM with the shortie present.

2) How much fold equity i had vs his check raising range

so I decided to wimp out!

Happy New Year!

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Don't much like you B/C on the flop with the gut shot str8/flush draw - just re-pop it hard enough to show you are committed, and yes call if he shoves.

Clearly your aware there is a "shortie present" so you have to know the BB with position on you & a stack can be taking this line with a wide range, including lots of air.

As played to the turn C/F is hori-bad.

I can see the argument for Check/Ship but I don't like giving him the option of taking a free card.

I'm opening again, with 15BB in the middle and you having 26ish back there is a good argument for open-shipping that runs like => bet 10BB into 15BB leaving 16BB back => he ships you are looking at 16BB gets you 50BB holding pr+draw to the stone cold nuts => never folding => just open-ship...

I'm getting it in on the flop if possible, but if I did get to the turn on this line I'm open-shipping 100%

my 2 cents

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Interesting spot. I think I would show my nitty side here and check/call flop, check/call turn (bet if he checked behind flop) and decide on the river. I'm very aggro late in the tournaments, but it would really suck here to let the 6BB guy get the payjump - I'm interested what more experienced players think about this one.

but if I did get to the turn on this line I'm open-shipping 100%

This I don't stand behind. What does that achieve? Is that a bluff or a value bet? What better hands than a pair of 7s are folding (TT-88 are 99,99% not in his range and he is unlikely to fold a Jack) and what worse hands are calling (you are suggesting betting ~2.4M into ~1.6M so naked FDs are most likely folding - plus most of his high FDs also have a Jack and you do not want to be in that spot)? Check raise is a much better play - it may not change a lot in what I just said, but while achieving pretty much the same as open shipping turn (denying his bluffs equity with most likely 2 live cards) you are getting a lot more chips when is on air, which he should be on a decent amount here. it also significantly changes his odds when he has something marginal and can possibly call worse though it really looks like he is on airball or "Jacks plus".

As played I think I like flatting turn best with the intention of calling river unless it's an offsuit K,Q,T,9. He is unlikely to have an Ace and just flat given the situation (midstack opener with 6BB stack in, BvB and so on) so I would assume it's a bad card for him - if he ships on that I would think he is most likely bluffing with air on a scarecard. Offsuit K, Q, T and 9 would suck, but other than these 12 cards nothing should really change the situation all that much and you improve on a third of the deck. If you are beat by a Jack (or better), he still would have got it in on the turn so you don't change the outcome vs turn GII.

As I said, very interesting spot and I look forward to more opinions.

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This I don't stand behind. What does that achieve?

I guess I thought I was clear. Any reasonable bet commits you to his shove and, as I'm NEVER folding this, shoving is no different than betting for me, except that it puts more pressure on the villain and I'm not actually interested in seeing more cards.

From the villain's side of this one I'm betting/raising real close to any two on the assumption that I can mostly push the mid-stack out because of the shorty (as actually happened here). Because I see that as the correct line for the villain, as the mid-stack I'm always giving the big stack's range a lot of air in these spots and so pushing back hard and fairly wide.

As I said in my original post, I'm just 3-bet shipping the flop for all these reasons. If he actually has something and calls I have outs but the vast majority of the time he's just (correctly) being a bully and has to fold.

In my view playing for the pay jump is exactly equal to playing scared money - I'm always playing ONLY for the win.

another 2 cents

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I guess I thought I was clear. Any reasonable bet commits you to his shove and, as I'm NEVER folding this, shoving is no different than betting for me, except that it puts more pressure on the villain and I'm not actually interested in seeing more cards.

From the villain's side of this one I'm betting/raising real close to any two on the assumption that I can mostly push the mid-stack out because of the shorty (as actually happened here). Because I see that as the correct line for the villain, as the mid-stack I'm always giving the big stack's range a lot of air in these spots and so pushing back hard and fairly wide.

But what hands do you want him to fold to your open ship that are not folding to check/ship? If the pot is 1.57million, you ship and he folds air, you made 1.57 million. If you check, he bets 630k, you ship, he folds as he has air, you made 2.2 million. clearly a better outcome. And as you said, you yourself would be doing it with air - in that case you really prefer to let him bet before you jam.

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2 folds, Hero raises to 200,000, BB calls 100,000

btw. I'm not a big fan of this. I don't mind min raising Pre, but I really don't like doing it from the SB (and I hate it in this exact spot :) ). You are inviting the big stack to flat you giving him ridiculous odds on a call when he will be in position and will have beautiful ICM spot maximizing his folding equity in the hand - in other words you are just asking to get outplayed in this spot. Try changing your SB open size in general to something much closer to 3x and see if that works better for you. It does for me :)

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btw. I'm not a big fan of this. I don't mind min raising Pre, but I really don't like doing it from the SB (and I hate it in this exact spot :) ). You are inviting the big stack to flat you giving him ridiculous odds on a call when he will be in position and will have beautiful ICM spot maximizing his folding equity in the hand - in other words you are just asking to get outplayed in this spot. Try changing your SB open size in general to something much closer to 3x and see if that works better for you. It does for me :)

I have been raising 2.5x - 3x in general but for some reason I didn´t here. Probably to save chips if he raised.

Yep, I definately felt I allowed myself to be outplayed. I would usually GII on that flop but didn´t want to bust being overly aggro when I wasn´t sure. I thought he would never fold a J and possibly not a better fD.

Now I actually called the turn bet but folded to the blank river shove.

Anyway the short stack got down to 1bb. I shoved AJs blind on blind (+EV) and busted in 4th when the big stack called with kq. So I wasn´t playing scared, just trying to take into account the ICM implications.

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But what hands do you want him to fold to your open ship that are not folding to check/ship? If the pot is 1.57million, you ship and he folds air, you made 1.57 million. If you check, he bets 630k, you ship, he folds as he has air, you made 2.2 million. clearly a better outcome. And as you said, you yourself would be doing it with air - in that case you really prefer to let him bet before you jam.

Ummmm... I'm not looking to get to the turn at all. I want to take it down or get it in on the flop. That said if we did get to the turn:

I'm NEVER folding the turn with pr+draw to the stone cold nuts+str8 & flush draws & 20+% of my stack in the middle.

I'm NEVER checking the turn as the worst possible outcome is he takes a free card in position. (nut draw looking to hit or nut hand looking to induce, everything else bets)

But the second worst outcome is he ships over my open & I'm looking at a call getting >3:1 and having to win at showdown.

Sure he's not folding his sets, 2pr, maybe not his over pr but he can be folding a lot of his Js, 88-TT (unlikely as no raise pre), most of his better flush draws (a ship is not offering the odds for non-nut 1 over flush).

If we open he can ship back with all of his draws, all of his Js, many of which can't call our ship and most of which we don't want to play against. We really aren't interested in seeing any more cards in any case, we just want to take it here, assuming we didn't take it on the flop. When he calls we're never drawing dead and mostly have 15 outs.

Even if we assume he opens 100% behind our check, he then gets to set the price he gets on our ship, given the stacks he can easily give himself 4+:1 on our ship so we can't ever know if we'll be able to fold out a draw (the price of playing OOP).

yet another 2 cents

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Still don't agree with this. You are defending open shipping vs just Betting small, but I'm not advocating any of these. I'm saying that a check/ship is way better than an open ship here. What he ends up folding is pretty much the same in both cases but you make more money allowing him to bet. He may call with a naked flush draw, but what is wrong with that? Most importantly, you now have that beat by a big margin. secondly, what flush draws is he likely to have here? you have 2 blockers to medium Ax FDs, big Ax FDs are 3betting pre, and most likely small Ax FDs (A2,A3) are 3betting pre as a bluff with a blocker with a beautiful spot to do so. Khigh? KQ may 3bet pre, but I can imagine him having that. KJ? has you crushed and whatever you do he is going all the way. KT, K9, K6? ok he may have that. K3,K2 you are crushing. QJ same as KJ. QT, Q9 likely, other Qs you are crushing. I could on like that, but you get it now. So there are like 5-6 combos you are ok with him having, and way more you are really liking (naked FD with 1 overcard). You really are more than ok to get it in vs a FD here with 1 card to come. Anyway, he just isn't very likely to have it at all.

So if he bet/folds there is just no argument it's a better outcome than when he just folds to the open ship. You just made more chips.

When he calls you are actually in a better spot in a check/jam scenario as he may now be calling these few naked flush draws that you are beating. When he calls and has you beat, you just did not change a things with 2 lines. What Jx do you think he is folding to a Jam that he decided to raise flop with? J2, J3, J8, J9, JT? He most likely isn't in the hand with the first two, and if he is, he calls flop with these. and he really is not folding J6 (very unlikely to have that), J7, QJ+.

When he checks behind it's actually very good. you are getting to a showdown cheaper with a very decent showdown value, with half of the deck helping you and only a few cards that are actually scary - and even if one of the scary ones hits, he may just give up like he did on the turn.

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Still don't agree with this.

Clearly we have very different views on this and that's not a bad thing :)

As I said originally I'm never calling the raise on the flop. That's where I decide if I'm going with this hand. If so I'm 3-betting the flop and as a full pot raise would get ~70% of my starting stack in the middle, leaving a scrib stump back, that's where I ship mostly but some % of the time I'll raise just enough to give me ~4:1 to call his ship.

I view the call on the flop as a mistake but as played to the turn:

So far we have zero information about the villain's hand and our call on the flop has our holding functionally face up in that he's got us on a weakish draw or a pr below the J.

Suppose we do check & he checks back and a diamond hit's, we any good? How about a 7? What card's other than a 6 do we really like now? Maybe we get to showdown cheep, but he's going to have a really good idea where we are and we still don't have much info on him. Having checked the turn we'll be checking the river close to 100% of the time and he then decides if we showdown cheep with a super good read on where we are. Survivable but not a great spot...

Suppose we do check & he makes a real bet, something in the 2/3 to 3/4 pot range. Can he ever fold our ship? I'm not convinced he can ever fold our ship on this line and I'm not really interested in getting to showdown when he wants to.

The line the villain actually took is interesting, betting 6.3BBs into a pot that's already 15+BBs and 40% of effective stacks is in general a mistake unless you are trying to induce or you have a solid read on us that we're scared money (as seem likely here) and a tiny bet is enough. If you know your villain well enough to be sure he'll take the tiny bet line he took here then a a check/ship line could be OK as he can actually fold a bet this small a reasonable % of the time. We didn't get any better reads on the villain than post flop aggression % high enough to get him to the finial 4 so we can't know that when we have to act. In any case I'm still not interested in getting to showdown when he wants to.

2 more cents

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Suppose we do check & he checks back and a diamond hit's, we any good? How about a 7? What card's other than a 6 do we really like now?

Man, after he checks turn and a diamond, 8, 7 or a 6 comes I'm really loving my life and I'm extatic about getting it in. Sure, you sometimes will lose but you are so far ahead that you just should not worry about it.

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Man, after he checks turn and a diamond, 8, 7 or a 6 comes I'm really loving my life and I'm extatic about getting it in. Sure, you sometimes will lose but you are so far ahead that you just should not worry about it.

We going to bounce in our chair and insta-ship after our check on the turn only when we hit? That's kind of exploitable isn't it? We still open check after a check on the turn close to 100% I think.

Sure any 6 and your a lock, we get it in if he opens behind us...

If an 8 comes and he opens behind us can we raise with a 1 card str8 there?

If a diamond comes and he opens behind us. We have to call but I don't think we win that much.

If the board pairs and he opens behind us we get to what? On a 7 we get a bunch of chips in and win some of the time, maybe even mostly. We'll still find some boats. None of the other pairs on board change anything.

It all comes back to the issue that he has a much better handle on us than we do on him.

2 more cents

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are you aware that we are out of position here? you get to act first. If he checks turn behind, I'm Betting river on all cards that improve my hand other than an 8 (which I'm check calling with), I'm check calling on all blanks and Aces (including cards that pair the board), and probably check folding only on offsuit K, Q, T and 9. That's it. If we hit our flush it's a very straight-forward river valuebet and I expect to be good 95% of the time there.

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Position Name Stack

CO 5,490,461 (54.9 bb)

BTN 669,146 (6.7 bb)

SB Hero 3,397,546 (34 bb)

BB 5,802,847 (58 bb)

Stakes/Buy-In: $5+$0.50

Players: 4

Preflop: Hero is SB with 7 of diamonds 8 of diamonds

2 folds, Hero raises to 200,000, BB calls 100,000

Flop: (460,000) J of hearts 5 of diamonds 4 of diamonds (2 players)

Hero bets 200,000, BB raises to 555,555, Hero calls 355,555

Turn: (1,571,110) 7 of spades (2 players)

Hero checks, BB bets 633,333

Hero???

opponent postflop aggression 35%. I feel I completely butchered this one postflop because I didn´t want to risk my stack with the shortstack with 7bb on the otherhand he was good enough to put pressure on me with the shorties present.

What would have been the best way to play the flop & turn?

Limp pre and bet the flop....as played bet gii on da flop NEVER EVER EVER FOLD

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are you aware that we are out of position here? you get to act first. If he checks turn behind, I'm Betting river on all cards that improve my hand other than an 8 (which I'm check calling with), I'm check calling on all blanks and Aces (including cards that pair the board), and probably check folding only on offsuit K, Q, T and 9. That's it. If we hit our flush it's a very straight-forward river valuebet and I expect to be good 95% of the time there.

I covered the "we are out of position here" question in a previous post. If we continue with C/C on the turn getting 1.39 mil of our 3.39 mil starting stack in the middle leaving us with 2 mil back and 2.8 mil in the middle, that is bad enough in itself. But then to only open if we hit and C/F the rest would be a hugely exploitable pattern even if we hadn't already committed >1/3 of our stack to kind of maximize the pain. I'm never going there myself...

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I covered the "we are out of position here" question in a previous post. If we continue with C/C on the turn getting 1.39 mil of our 3.39 mil starting stack in the middle leaving us with 2 mil back and 2.8 mil in the middle, that is bad enough in itself. But then to only open if we hit and C/F the rest would be a hugely exploitable pattern even if we hadn't already committed >1/3 of our stack to kind of maximize the pain. I'm never going there myself...

I just don't understand anything in this post. what are you talking about with check calling turn when we were discussing a scenario when he checks behind turn? and where did I say anything about betting only when we hit and c/f the rest? I said I'd call most of the rivers - only folding to 12 cards.

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I just don't understand anything in this post. what are you talking about with check calling turn when we were discussing a scenario when he checks behind turn? and where did I say anything about betting only when we hit and c/f the rest? I said I'd call most of the rivers - only folding to 12 cards.

I guess I'm also confused, I thought this to clear to worry about.

The board has all the draws in the world on it, what hands do you think can he check back the turn with after our bet/call on the flop? From his side of the table we have to look like a weakish draw or a pair below the J.

In this spot I give his check back range AKdd, AQdd, AJdd, KJdd, QJdd and maybe JJ, 55, 44, but this board is really to wet for a set for most players. Many players will also always bet the unpaired draws (AKdd & AQdd). IMO Everything else he got here with has to bet.

Clearly you think he can check back a much wider range than that, with this line and board. I disagree, but I would like to hear what range you give for his check backs and why.

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I think his flop raise is pretty polarizing. He is not doing it with a weak J to fold to a flop 3bet, or to suddenly decide to check behind the turn and fold river. He either has the goods (strong made hand like AJ+ or at least a FD) or is giving up. And if he thought he had the goods on that board on the flop, raised and got called, he certainly still thinks he's good and has no reason to slow down. It's a wet board and you clearly have something you can pay with having called a flop-raise. And given the overall situation, he is very likely to be trying to get you off a hand due to ICM implications and the fact that you are not that likely to have hit the J54 board.

If he checks the turn behind, I think we are very likely to be good and he is not very likely to have a FD, as this would really allow him to keep the pressure up with a very strong backup plan if you call. Would you check that turn behind with a set or 2 pair? I know I wouldn't.

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But then to only open if we hit and C/F the rest would be a hugely exploitable pattern even if we hadn't already committed >1/3 of our stack to kind of maximize the pain. I'm never going there myself...

Good point, but these guys are generally not good enough at $5 games to concern themselves with exploiting anyone or being exploited.

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I think his flop raise is pretty polarizing. He is not doing it with a weak J to fold to a flop 3bet, or to suddenly decide to check behind the turn and fold river. He either has the goods (strong made hand like AJ+ or at least a FD) or is giving up. And if he thought he had the goods on that board on the flop, raised and got called, he certainly still thinks he's good and has no reason to slow down. It's a wet board and you clearly have something you can pay with having called a flop-raise. And given the overall situation, he is very likely to be trying to get you off a hand due to ICM implications and the fact that you are not that likely to have hit the J54 board.

If he checks the turn behind, I think we are very likely to be good and he is not very likely to have a FD, as this would really allow him to keep the pressure up with a very strong backup plan if you call. Would you check that turn behind with a set or 2 pair? I know I wouldn't.

So, this comes back to my original post, he raises my c-bet which led me to believe he has a J which he may not fold if I shove, depending on the strength of the kicker or a FD which he may fold or a bluff.

The turn bet certainly reduces bluffs a little after I call the flop raise, but he still has fd and J´s in his range.

His stats indicated over 150games 75% cbet 0% turn bet & 23% river bet, so based on these alone I would say he had something and wasn´t bluffing or had a FD.

I looked him up at the time but only on Party with 150games. I checked again today and found he is a good reg with av buy of $30 and 70% ROI but only 2k games.

I have a stack that could put a dent in his and initially I thought he wouldn´t be capable of triple barrelling as a complete bluff after I call call line, I mean I´m not doing that with air am I? But, he was obviously very capable.

But, after reviewing it all again, I like any option, as long as I didn´t fold! Like most of you said!

1) GII on the flop - easier for me & puts the pressure back to him.

2) As played, call down including calling most river cards. But, calling down like this requires postflop skills I don´t have.

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If he checks the turn behind, I think we are very likely to be good and he is not very likely to have a FD, as this would really allow him to keep the pressure up with a very strong backup plan if you call. Would you check that turn behind with a set or 2 pair? I know I wouldn't.

OK, fair enough. I just can't see him checking back any of his bluffs ever and you think most of checks are in his bluff range, I still disagree but that's OK.

With these stacks & the flop as is I would never get get to the turn with any choices still to be made, as I said in an early post. I would decide on the flop if I'm not putting any more chips in the pot or committing to the hand, and me personally I'm playing it. I would have opened the flop 2/3 to 3/4 pot and 3-bet shipped some and sized my 3-bet to give myself 4:1 to call his ship the rest of the time and been happy with any outcome.

Also I would have used something bigger pre at least 2.5x maybe up to 3x SB vs. BB.

If we aren't going to proceed when we flop str8/flush draws because of the shorty then just surrender the SB and save the chips. There is actually a really good ICM based argument for that line, I just play a much more aggressive style.

another 2 cents

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The turn bet certainly reduces bluffs a little after I call the flop raise, but he still has fd and J´s in his range.

SB vs. BB the big stack can float a min-raise with just about any two cards. Because of that he can also flat in position 100% of his value range and deny you any information about his hand. I don't know what he sees as your c-bet% but he can click back a smallish c-bet 100% and be EV+ if you fold as little as 20% and you still have no information about his hand.

When you call his raise you have functionally turned your hand up, he can't know your exact cards but has you on a weakish draw or pair below the jack. Anything better and you re-raise, anything worse & you fold. At that point he has a solid line on your holding and you have zero information on his. That's what we call "a bad thing" :)

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this is FT right? i would tend to limp here pre a lot, especcialy since there is shorty about to bust, u rlly dont wanna bust b4 him that would be bad spew.

I dont rlly get why u minraised pre, if your going to raise, go 2.5x or maybe 2.6, i thinbk those are much better sizings. i see people do this minraise all the time, i rly dont get it, like ok maybe if u had a very strong hand and ur making an exploitive sizing then i guess prolly fine, but tbh i never rlly open to mninraise from sb i think u giv bb too good of price to play against u in position it just cant be good.

on this flop u rly cant fold, given its a ft and there is uber short stack i would tend to play this passive because busting before the 6bb stack is rlly suchg a bad thing to do here.. without considering icm i would just try and get it in on the flop, but i think in this spot, if this is indeed a ft then u took a fine line by not re-raising on flop

he bets 6 1/2 bb on turn? prety ez call sint it? im not entirely sure what SPR is here as your format is somehwat difficult to picture, as ong as your not risking your stack ont urn i think u have to call given the strength of your hand,

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I feel I completely butchered this one postflop

i think ur line ont he flop is fine, i think its ur preflop action which put u into the ugly spot. with there being such a short stack, you do not want to inflate the pot here preflop. the BB is the damn chipleader, u can even "apply pressure" as you mentioned, he wil be tyhe one to apply pressure.

I think you should limp/call preflop, then check/cal flop, and then reevaluate on turn or river depending how the board runs out and on wether the bb checks back turn or double barrels

if he checks back pre you can stab on flop or go for delayed cb it will depend on the texture.

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