Jump to content
  • 0
robdogg

Did i play my sixes optimally?

Question

  • 0

So this was in the early stages of a deep stacked MTT (if that matters).

I'm on the button and two people limp in and i decide to join in to see a flop with my sixes, bb raises to 4x and we all call. Flop comes 234r. Considering the bb raised im putting him on a range which includes a lot of face cards, maybe a big pocket pair. It checks round to me and i bet half the pot, partly to see where im at and partly because i think i might have the best hand. The bb calls and so does one other guy. River comes another 3. BB checks and the other guy weirdly just bets 50, anyway i raise him to half the pot which is about 1000. The bb folds and the other guy calls, which makes me a little uneasy. The river comes a king and once again he bets 50, im a little weirded out by his bet sizing especially considering the fact he called my other raise on the turn, so i just call. He shows K2s and i lose to the two pair.

I ended up losing about 20% of my 10,000 stack and this was the first hand of the tournament so it tilted me a little bit. My question is, was i being too confident with my sixes? Should i have kept the pot small considering loads of cards could have nullified my over pair?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Recommended Posts

  • 0

Pretty poorly played imo. This early, when blinds are at their smallest and stacks are stupid-deep, I'd prefer to throw the 66 away after the preflop 4x from the BB. Not a huge fan of the limp either to be honest as you're opening yourself up to a 4-way pot with a really weak hand for such a situation, which negates our position some, also. The 234 flop kinda half looks like it hits us but again multi way with weak passive limper's, just have to think it's going to be hard to get a bet through, certainly not for half-pot. Also, a "feeling" isn't enough justification to bet, for me. Were you value betting? If so why only half pot with clearly weak players OOP to you? Semi-bluff? - Not sure what 3 players are folding out other than complete rags on this board, considering preflop action. Semi bluff doesn't work so it looks to me to be more like a random stab. Anyway, we get called. Turn play is very weird; min bet for 50 I assume, then raised to 1000 - I'd argue that neither of you are representing anything here other than what the two of you actually have.. weak hands. Hate this raise and sizing tbh, why not a few hundred chips more if you believe you can fold him out? Same outcome when he has a 0-equity holding. Just call it or raise to a normal amount, I prefer call. River is the easiest call of your life but rarely good. Main problem with this hand is being in it in the first place, then committing chips on the flop when you didn't need to (not even slightly concerned about being c/r'd at all?).

So, in summary; Fold pre. As played c/b flop and evaluate. If checked to again then bet for sure on the turn for value but be very careful if someone looks you up and the river is unfavorable. In that spot we're done a decent amount of the time as we don't beat much.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

I guess the hand is pretty weak, but what im really trying to do with pocket pairs in the early stages of an MTT is set mining, although i did really disregard my usual strategy here. If i hit the 6, its a really well disguised hand and i have a chance of doubling up or otherwise earning some serious chips early on no? Thats why i like to play pocket pairs early on.

Having said that, you are right about the fact that my betting wasnt great, i guess thinking back what i was trying to do is make some face cards fold that might outdraw me or lf the other limper is on a straight draw make him fold too.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

That's fair, but you didn't hit said set and continued to pile money in, which includes a massive raise of $950 over a $50 bet. That's 19x, with a pretty weak draw. Add to that the 4x pre and 1/2 pot bet on the flop and we're not mining anymore, we're spewing. Losing 2k here is massive - with the BB at $50 that's just way too much to be dropping in this hand, 40BB's or so. Just too much imo. Also, in a pot with 3 limp-callers a set or straight on this particular board may not be as well disguised as it may seem. It's not like we've opened the old T8s from UTG and flopped the nut straight or anything. Or trapped with a monster. Notice the preflop aggressor called one 1/2 pot bet and was done when the turn didn't bring the A-K-Q he was looking for.

I'd prefer to take the aggressive route and raise yourself preflop and fold to a 4bet if the BB pumps it up. Or just straight up fold pre. Limp-call doesn't appeal to me but I think we can get away much cheaper than played.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

I think you played the hand fine. I am never folding this pre being deep stacked as these hands are great hands multiway because they are easy to fold if you miss, and can hit the flop very hard. If the river was a Q, you probably would have thought you played the hand correctly, but because you got unlucky and lost the hand made you question yourself.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
Pretty poorly played imo. This early, when blinds are at their smallest and stacks are stupid-deep, I'd prefer to throw the 66 away after the preflop 4x from the BB. Not a huge fan of the limp either to be honest as you're opening yourself up to a 4-way pot with a really weak hand for such a situation, which negates our position some, also. The 234 flop kinda half looks like it hits us but again multi way with weak passive limper's, just have to think it's going to be hard to get a bet through, certainly not for half-pot. Also, a "feeling" isn't enough justification to bet, for me. Were you value betting? If so why only half pot with clearly weak players OOP to you? Semi-bluff? - Not sure what 3 players are folding out other than complete rags on this board, considering preflop action. Semi bluff doesn't work so it looks to me to be more like a random stab. Anyway, we get called. Turn play is very weird; min bet for 50 I assume, then raised to 1000 - I'd argue that neither of you are representing anything here other than what the two of you actually have.. weak hands. Hate this raise and sizing tbh, why not a few hundred chips more if you believe you can fold him out? Same outcome when he has a 0-equity holding. Just call it or raise to a normal amount, I prefer call. River is the easiest call of your life but rarely good. Main problem with this hand is being in it in the first place, then committing chips on the flop when you didn't need to (not even slightly concerned about being c/r'd at all?).

So, in summary; Fold pre. As played c/b flop and evaluate. If checked to again then bet for sure on the turn for value but be very careful if someone looks you up and the river is unfavorable. In that spot we're done a decent amount of the time as we don't beat much.

this is really just terrible advice

you played the hand fine. can't fold pre as we have set value. Flop is good to try and take down the pot right there, or a lot you will get called with ace high. Turn is fine he looks hella weak with that 50 bet. River is fine. Just got unlucky man. Please please don't listen to FlopDecks advice.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
I guess the hand is pretty weak, but what im really trying to do with pocket pairs in the early stages of an MTT is set mining, although i did really disregard my usual strategy here. If i hit the 6, its a really well disguised hand and i have a chance of doubling up or otherwise earning some serious chips early on no? Thats why i like to play pocket pairs early on.

Having said that, you are right about the fact that my betting wasnt great, i guess thinking back what i was trying to do is make some face cards fold that might outdraw me or lf the other limper is on a straight draw make him fold too.

yes you want to get rid of hands that could potentially draw out on you. Thats why your flop bet is fine. Like I said before you will sometimes get called by A high and ace high will fold to your bet on the turn. You played it well man don't be too hard on yourself

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

You played this hand fine. When the BB check calls this flop after the preflop action, I would range him mainly on broadway aces, with the occasional AA and KK in the mix although I think these days players just have a tendency to bet all of their overpairs on a dynamic board like this for protection.

The other villain can have a much wider range calling here after the preflop limp, his range is still undefined. He will have a lot of 1 pair, or pair + draw type hands like 45 a3 a2 etc. even overs with backdoor flush draws/straight draws are getting a good price to call here.

When the turn comes a 3, and the initial raiser checks, I would narrow his range to almost entirely ak-aj and sometimes AA.

The other villain sort of clarifies his range a bit on the turn and leads 50 into a pot of 2000. He almost never has 3-x as this hand goes bigger for value, and he rarely has a pair better than your 66. His bet reeks of 2-x, 4-x, and draws wanting to set a cheap river price.

Against these two ranges 66 is a slam dunk raise for value on the turn. Just think about it this way: You put in the majority of the chips when your hand was golden and villain only got 50 chips from you when you were beat. Very poorly played by villain, unlucky for you.

I would listen to the advice from shrubbery and pokerdude. Flopdeck usually gives good advice but I don't agree with him even remotely on this hand! ha

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

W

this is really just terrible advice

you played the hand fine. can't fold pre as we have set value. Flop is good to try and take down the pot right there, or a lot you will get called with ace high. Turn is fine he looks hella weak with that 50 bet. River is fine. Just got unlucky man. Please please don't listen to FlopDecks advice.

Bit harsh, but I respect your opinion. Personally I don't like going deep with these hands early stages. Perhaps that's a mistake on my part and if so then so be it, I'll work on that going forward. Cheers!

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

I would listen to the advice from shrubbery and pokerdude. Flopdeck usually gives good advice but I don't agree with him even remotely on this hand! ha

Learn me then!! You're all better than me at this game so if this is a problem in my game then it needs to be addressed. I'm all ears guys no offense taken

Edit: I do apologize if my advice was poor. I frequent this forum to improve my game and help others along the way if i can. I do mean well. Last thing I'd want is to send a fellow grinder down the wrong path and damage their chances of doing well.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

Edit: I do apologize if my advice was poor. I frequent this forum to improve my game and help others along the way if i can. I do mean well. Last thing I'd want is to send a fellow grinder down the wrong path and damage their chances of doing well.

You are right, it is a great way to improve your game. Get involved and give advice and if a better player corrects you every now and then, you´ve learn something too.

We learn plenty from you & I doubt anyone holds it against you for one bit of duff advice, it keeps us on our toes!

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
W

Bit harsh, but I respect your opinion. Personally I don't like going deep with these hands early stages. Perhaps that's a mistake on my part and if so then so be it, I'll work on that going forward. Cheers!

Sorry man I was being a dick. I raised your post in another thread

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

I only read flopdecks response and I totally disagree with his opinion. Im on the button with 66 FAKN aayy im calling here early in a mtt im trying to get chips this is why we play.Im also from the button joining this 4x raised 4 way .The flop is great and you tested the market and established authority . I like the fact you didnt fall into the barely raise up his 50 lead tester turn bet. I like your raise A LOT here , Ive made these micro leads many times and Ive been doing it for years here and there to either trap with my beast or watch a guy call only from fear or better yet they under raise according to my 50 which i have seen many times come out cheaper then checking and them double barrleing. Checking back the river was smart at this point and his play was weak sauce and Im hoping to play more boards with this guy and peel his stack exploiting the fak out of this fishstick. WP IMO now to read others thoughts on this

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
I only read flopdecks response and I totally disagree with his opinion. Im on the button with 66 FAKN aayy im calling here early in a mtt im trying to get chips this is why we play.Im also from the button joining this 4x raised 4 way .The flop is great and you tested the market and established authority . I like the fact you didnt fall into the barely raise up his 50 lead tester turn bet. I like your raise A LOT here , Ive made these micro leads many times and Ive been doing it for years here and there to either trap with my beast or watch a guy call only from fear or better yet they under raise according to my 50 which i have seen many times come out cheaper then checking and them double barrleing. Checking back the river was smart at this point and his play was weak sauce and Im hoping to play more boards with this guy and peel his stack exploiting the fak out of this fishstick. WP IMO now to read others thoughts on this

Yeah, I was wrong about this one, and have been learned. Your comment makes perfect sense and I see the error in my thinking in relation to this spot, and indeed similar ones which I've come to thew realization are along the same lines and also holes in my own game. Oh well, live and learn. My bad guys.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
Yeah, I was wrong about this one, and have been learned. Your comment makes perfect sense and I see the error in my thinking in relation to this spot, and indeed similar ones which I've come to thew realization are along the same lines and also holes in my own game. Oh well, live and learn. My bad guys.

We're all here to learn brother! Even posting bad advice is good for our community, it can inspire a deeper thinking and lead to positive changes for all those involved in the convo

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

I would add there’s nothing wrong with betting smaller than half pot on flop. Having played through millions of flop scenarios, we can definitely have an approach that gets closer to 30% on most flops that gets the job down. It might not be the most obvious thing to do, but Kees the pot that little bit smaller so that most of our range does better on turns and rivers. It’s funny how everyday I play people just mash the half pot button when it seems incorrect

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

absolutely Kanabai smaller flop bets are my thang. I really love micro bets even more then check backs sometimes. Just because it opens up many doors and we still get money in the pot. Im constantly trying to be different then the latest trends out there. Edges are constantly changing. So , being predictable is something I try to avoid non stop.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
absolutely Kanabai smaller flop bets are my thang. I really love micro bets even more then check backs sometimes. Just because it opens up many doors and we still get money in the pot. Im constantly trying to be different then the latest trends out there. Edges are constantly changing. So , being predictable is something I try to avoid non stop.

I see these small 1/5th 1/4th flop bets all the time and I don't get it. My goal is to win as many chips as possible. Therefore I am betting more than 1/4th the pot when super deep. It gets more money in which creates a bigger pot for me to win. Whether it's double or triple barreling having it or not having it. Either way I win bigger pots and therefore have more chips in play. And when I double up I have more chips than you would have because you bet 1/4th the pot where I bet half the pot or more.

edit; when I'm deep in tournaments and the stacks are smaller there are certain situations where I will bet 1/4th of the pot. But early in tournaments I will never or very rarely cbet 1/4th of the pot

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

I like them for certain boards. Checking is free so if we try to check raise and they check it back lol we missed , lil 1/4 bet can open up some strategy ideas though. I dont do it all the time . Some MTT I flow with it just like a min raise consistently. It can be a great bait bet . Just the other day I raised PFR and I flopped quads so I min led the flop and I got a bite. Turn hits and I clock about half clock and check. He fires a shot at me with a bet and the board is flush drawn so he might be aiming to hit that river for a 4 flush (or has a flush) so I raise it like 2.5x he calls . No spade hit the river so I checked it and dude sends me the open treasure chest and I just scooped his ego right off the table.

Also I might add that peeling pots and getting them to fold on cheap 1/4 bets are great as well

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
I like them for certain boards. Checking is free so if we try to check raise and they check it back lol we missed , lil 1/4 bet can open up some strategy ideas though. I dont do it all the time . Some MTT I flow with it just like a min raise consistently. It can be a great bait bet . Just the other day I raised PFR and I flopped quads so I min led the flop and I got a bite. Turn hits and I clock about half clock and check. He fires a shot at me with a bet and the board is flush drawn so he might be aiming to hit that river for a 4 flush (or has a flush) so I raise it like 2.5x he calls . No spade hit the river so I checked it and dude sends me the open treasure chest and I just scooped his ego right off the table.

Also I might add that peeling pots and getting them to fold on cheap 1/4 bets are great as well

yea I get it. I just don't particularly like it. To each their own. I def will 2.5x raise ppl if you were thinking that I don't.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

I don't think you played the hand that terribly at all. You extracted value from a hand that was crushed, bet twice on the low board protecting your sixes, and I like the flat call river...You can't fold and I don't want to turn 66 into a bluff raise here when you could be good a bunch of the time.

But I think it might be more valuable to talk about the reasoning behind each decision you've mentioned above.

It checks round to me and i bet half the pot, partly to see where im at and partly because i think i might have the best hand.

I think you should use better reasons for electing to bet...For example if you believe you have the best hand here, 66 multiway is going to need a lot of protection. So bet it for protection. Secondly ask yourself what worse hands are going to call your bet, and if you can identify enough of them then bet to extract value.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
So this was in the early stages of a deep stacked MTT (if that matters).

It does matter a lot. If you can post hand histories instead of describing it in a paragraph that would be great as it would provide us a lot more information about how the scenario played out.

I agree with Flop that I'd be raising those limpers preflop here, rather than limping in. But I don't think we should ever be folding preflop if we are early in a deepstacked MTT with 66, on the button, facing weak/middling limp ranges. When we are deep we've got the implied odds to set mine, and flops are generally easy to play because we either flop all the equity or none of it (flop a set or don't). If we iso raise we can cont. bet regardless a lot of the time IP and take the pot down.

I'm not sure why we would want to fold here preflop. I wouldn't be folding.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

I would advise anyone to actually just try betting 30% on most flops at a higher frequency and see how you get on. When I’m thinking about what to do with my range, the obvious conclusion is that opponents at micros will in general play very face up, won’t check raise enough, fold too often to cbets, play too passively, have weird calling ranges which either fold too much on turn or call too much. All this adds to me wanting to cbet more versus these players. When I’m cbetting at a higher frequency I want to use a smaller sizing. Problem with betting half pot is that we must then cbet less hands, tbh multiway it might make a lot of sense to do that, but on dry boards we don’t really need to consider it. As for getting more money from opponents if you bet half pot, I’m not sure this is entirely correct as when you bet third pot or less, our opponents will naturally call more hands which a) allows us to get value from hands we otherwise wouldn’t and b) gets our opponent to the turn with a weaker range than usual which versus weak players is very good for us now that we have the betting lead.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
I would advise anyone to actually just try betting 30% on most flops at a higher frequency and see how you get on. When I’m thinking about what to do with my range, the obvious conclusion is that opponents at micros will in general play very face up, won’t check raise enough, fold too often to cbets, play too passively, have weird calling ranges which either fold too much on turn or call too much. All this adds to me wanting to cbet more versus these players. When I’m cbetting at a higher frequency I want to use a smaller sizing. Problem with betting half pot is that we must then cbet less hands, tbh multiway it might make a lot of sense to do that, but on dry boards we don’t really need to consider it. As for getting more money from opponents if you bet half pot, I’m not sure this is entirely correct as when you bet third pot or less, our opponents will naturally call more hands which a) allows us to get value from hands we otherwise wouldn’t and b) gets our opponent to the turn with a weaker range than usual which versus weak players is very good for us now that we have the betting lead.

Why would we need to cbet less? I’m a fan of the 40%-50% cbets and I don’t have a problem. I also double barrell a lot when it’s right and occasionally triple barrell when the cards are right. Most of the time we are going to miss so since you said that players are calling more when we bet 30%, then we must widen up our double barrell range. I prefer half pot especially in the early stages.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

I just think when we bet less it allows us to get value from more of our range. Tbh the only time I really adjust the sizing to closer to half pot on flop is if I’m playing against someone who doesn’t fold flop very often, or plays very aggressively on flops and I have a value hand. But betting smaller as I said gets us value from the weaker part of our range as people call wider. A hand like 6s here for example is kinda towards the bottom of our value range. Checking is probably a decent option given that we are multiway and the value of protection goes way down the more people are in the hand, everyone Just prices each other in once one person calls. Still makes sense to bet tho to deny some equity and so it’s just a matter of what smaller sizing will achieve - which should be to deny equity at a smaller price than half pot does. I would add tho that I’m pretty clueless about how to approach flops when it’s 4 handed. Being multiway just makes it very difficult to choose which cards to barrel and slow down on and equities are so close that betting any size or checking can’t be that bad. I do think third pot works way better in almost all situations tho.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Answer this question...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.