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samj123

Calling a 3bet with kjs oop

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Hold'em No Limit - 20/40 (4 ante) - 8 players

$30

UTG: 6,649 (166 bb)

UTG+1 (Hero): 4,281 (107 bb)

MP: 5,407 (135 bb)

MP+1: 3,543 (89 bb)

CO: 8,335 (208 bb)

BU: 4,928 (123 bb)

SB: 4,542 (114 bb)

BB: 2,769 (69 bb)

Pre-Flop: (92) Hero is UTG+1 with Jd Kd

1 fold, Hero raises to 100, 1 fold, MP+1 calls 100, CO 3-bets to 434, 3 players fold,

Hero calls 334, 1 fold

Flop: (1,060) 8c 5c Jh (2 players)

Hero checks, CO bets 450, Hero calls 450

Turn: (1,960) 5h (2 players)

Hero checks, CO bets 1,020

Hero?

I only had 8 hands on my opponent but I looked him up afterwards and he is a winning mid stakes reg. I won an entry ticket.

I called pre as we were so deep stacked, but on review I think this is a mistake especially being OOP.

Being so deep stacked his 3 betting range vs utg+1 is going to be stronger, I think 4%-5% of hands - 10´s+ Aqs+ and as he is a good player perhaps 910s 78s??

Postflop- c-bet call seems ok to me. Turn - yukky, his bet looks like value or bluff. But, being so deep is he really bluffing a J high flop vs an unknown who might have J´s in her preflop calling range? Surely with there being plenty of low stakes satty tickets playing this MTT all he has to do is go for value and pick up the chips?

1) Are you folding this preflop?

2) Does 10´s + Aqs+ 910s 78s seem like a reasonable range for him to 3bet?

3) Are you folding the turn?

4) If i assume a tightish range preflop I´m only just getting the correct odds to call. How do i adjust these pot odds to account for implied odds? OR don´t I adjust?

Thanks!

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You really shouldnt be entering this hand from utg 1. Blinds are very small so an argument can be made to mingle in some pots for cheap to try and establish things I guess. I think its a pf muck overall though. As played ,Once I get 3 bet and its so early , just throw the hand away PF IMO . Simply move on, here take my 100 and lets see how often this stuff happens in future action.

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You really shouldnt be entering this hand from utg 1. Blinds are very small so an argument can be made to mingle in some pots for cheap to try and establish things I guess. I think its a pf muck overall though. As played ,Once I get 3 bet and its so early , just throw the hand away PF IMO . Simply move on, here take my 100 and lets see how often this stuff happens in future action.

How nitty do you play EP in early stages of KJs is an open fold? Not arguing against that, although I would play it myself. Genuinely curios as it seems a touch too nitty to me but I'm open to all ideas and approaches. I'm assuming you're not mucking KQs... how about pairs this early from EP? Like 99+ or something in that ball park? Table draw effects these choices of course. Interested to hear your response to this. Cheers.

Edit: this post is a duplicate, I left an actual response to it on the other one. Interested to hear your thoughts on that also if you have the time to read over it and respond.

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Edit: this post is a duplicate, I left an actual response to it on the other one. Interested to hear your thoughts on that also if you have the time to read over it and respond.

Ahh, now it becomes clear. I posted it to the wrong forum & 10 mins later deleted it & reposted it here. I wouldn´t have deleted if I´d had seen a reply....sorry Flopdeck.

I am the nutty one in this case & I´m trying to bring a few people down with me!

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I must admit KJs is not always an open for me EP. I was looking at my preflop opening hands and noticed that a preflop chart I have puts it as an open so I thought I would try widening my EP range a little.

Maybe it would be ok on a weak table but it was foolish to start "experimenting" on a higher buy in.

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I think its a mistake not to open this hand, even from EP. Especially at this stage of the tournament, your primary goal should be to find a way to get in the pot with hands that you can stack your opponents with.

I would open any pair here, and most suited connectors, probably all the way down to 56s(I am looser than most).

The mistake i see people making is opening too many offsuit hands here(kqo,kjo,a10o etc) I would rather have KJs here than ako 100% of the time. Logic being that i can win a big pot with kjs when i make a flush or straight, ak and the like will win small pots or lose big ones most often.

Just my point of view, suited connectors and small pairs rise in value the deeper you are playing, and high card hands and big pairs drop in value.

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This one:

Quick reply...

Just Fold this pre Sam.

The BB is only 40, we just don't need to be playing KJs OOP, especially this early and this deep to aggression.

We certainly don't want to be flatting this pre for about 10% of our MASSIVE stack.

We don't want to be 4betting either. (Let's assume we did, then our villains is going to flat us close to 100% with KK+, he'll more than likely 5bet jam AK and we'd have to fold, spunking off a large % of our stack).

By flatting we've now put ourselves in a horrible spot on a flop like this.

(Remember, we do not want to be putting ourselves in horrible spots, especially easily avoidable ones :-))

We've ZERO clue to our villain's range and are now left playing a (hopeful) guessing game......

It's also important to note, that we could be exploiting them too (assuming they are QQ+/AK).

Exploitation is not only about us using our position to attack weak players or value betting thin etc, US folding pre (or post flop) can also be used to exploit our villains.

Villain could be 3betting us wider here, but at BB 40 GL, GG to them, always take a quick note in these spots - (**Villain 3bet our KJs UTG 2.5x open to a ridic 10x at BB 40**)

That way we've just got a little marker for any future reference should we need it.

GL as always.

Carl.

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Open is good. Can’t defend this large of a 3bet, especially when OOP against a good reg. Even against a smaller sized 3b we should have a lot more hands on a villain before we get creative to understand how loose they are, especially in position.

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I think its a mistake not to open this hand, even from EP. Especially at this stage of the tournament, your primary goal should be to find a way to get in the pot with hands that you can stack your opponents with.

I would open any pair here, and most suited connectors, probably all the way down to 56s(I am looser than most).

The mistake i see people making is opening too many offsuit hands here(kqo,kjo,a10o etc) I would rather have KJs here than ako 100% of the time. Logic being that i can win a big pot with kjs when i make a flush or straight, ak and the like will win small pots or lose big ones most often.

Just my point of view, suited connectors and small pairs rise in value the deeper you are playing, and high card hands and big pairs drop in value.

^^ I fully agree with this. To open fold the KJs here from EP means we're playing like 6% or so of hands from EP. That's just way too nitty imo. Below is the response I posted on the duplicate upload... thoughts?

"I'm usually coming along for this price pre, with a good hand that plays well across the streets. If you are indeed correct that CO is a winning reg then, theoretically, villain should have enough weaker-semi strong hands in squeeze range. We're really only worried about AJ combos, QQ+ or bottom/second set. We also dominate some legit hands like QJs, JTs, and have taken the lead vs hands like 99 and TT. I think we c/c this down. Any reads on MP1? If this player happens to be weak, along with you being unknown to the CO, then there's an argument CO squeeze range could be a touch wider. Q or A river could be awkward though.

1) rarely, maybe vs super nit.

2) I think we can assign a few more hands than that tbh. Some more suited broadways, maybe some pairs weaker than TT too and some suited wheel A's.

3) I don't think so, personally. 5 doesn't hit that much of squeeze range, FD missed. Looks a decent spot to barrel AK or perhaps TT and OESD. Call and assess riv imo.

4) Again, if villain is winning reg then I think there's enough hands in squeeze range that are bluffing, as well as the combos we dominate, and the few pairs we've taken the lead on, that we can call down here. Super ugly riv would be like the Ac, Ah, Qc, Qh type cards I think. Maybe a 9 or T also."

I can understand not wanting to play a 3b pot OOP but to open fold this hand is just way too tight for me. It's one of the better draw hands we can play and, although not as strong as it is when we are shorter, I think it's plenty strong enough to open and indeed call the 3b. Anything to be said for a 4b? (just thinking out loud, not suggesting it)

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I'd open it but I fold to 3b because if I flat the 3b I might flop tpgk and then possibly have to fold if I realize the spot I'm in - oop in a bloated pot and not holding a strong hand vs unfamiliar villains 3bet range, so I shed some chips by calling instead of folding and just staying out of a quite unenjoyable scenario.

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Yes, I think I like the open but fold to 3bet.

I had no read on him and therefore he no read on me so my UTG+1 range could well be tight so I doubt he is mucking around that often to pick up a few hundred chips.

And yes Cage, it was an unenjoyable situation. I wonder sometimes whether I´ve actually learned anything at all!

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3) I don't think so, personally. 5 doesn't hit that much of squeeze range, FD missed. Looks a decent spot to barrel AK or perhaps TT and OESD. Call and assess riv imo.

4) Again, if villain is winning reg then I think there's enough hands in squeeze range that are bluffing, as well as the combos we dominate, and the few pairs we've taken the lead on, that we can call down here. Super ugly riv would be like the Ac, Ah, Qc, Qh type cards I think. Maybe a 9 or T also."

I can understand not wanting to play a 3b pot OOP but to open fold this hand is just way too tight for me. It's one of the better draw hands we can play and, although not as strong as it is when we are shorter, I think it's plenty strong enough to open and indeed call the 3b. Anything to be said for a 4b? (just thinking out loud, not suggesting it)

I´m not sure about the call on the turn tbh. He could be bluffing of course. But he has no read on me at all, unless he looked me up and was quaking in his boots!! I just think he is not going to want to blast away here with overcards vs an unknown range & opponent.

Interested to hear what anyone else thinks about calling the turn bet....

Re the 4bet bluff - not for me this early vs an unknown. BUt again interested to hear others opinions.

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^^ I fully agree with this. To open fold the KJs here from EP means we're playing like 6% or so of hands from EP. That's just way too nitty imo. Below is the response I posted on the duplicate upload... thoughts?

"I'm usually coming along for this price pre, with a good hand that plays well across the streets. If you are indeed correct that CO is a winning reg then, theoretically, villain should have enough weaker-semi strong hands in squeeze range. We're really only worried about AJ combos, QQ+ or bottom/second set. We also dominate some legit hands like QJs, JTs, and have taken the lead vs hands like 99 and TT. I think we c/c this down. Any reads on MP1? If this player happens to be weak, along with you being unknown to the CO, then there's an argument CO squeeze range could be a touch wider. Q or A river could be awkward though.

1) rarely, maybe vs super nit.

2) I think we can assign a few more hands than that tbh. Some more suited broadways, maybe some pairs weaker than TT too and some suited wheel A's.

3) I don't think so, personally. 5 doesn't hit that much of squeeze range, FD missed. Looks a decent spot to barrel AK or perhaps TT and OESD. Call and assess riv imo.

4) Again, if villain is winning reg then I think there's enough hands in squeeze range that are bluffing, as well as the combos we dominate, and the few pairs we've taken the lead on, that we can call down here. Super ugly riv would be like the Ac, Ah, Qc, Qh type cards I think. Maybe a 9 or T also."

I can understand not wanting to play a 3b pot OOP but to open fold this hand is just way too tight for me. It's one of the better draw hands we can play and, although not as strong as it is when we are shorter, I think it's plenty strong enough to open and indeed call the 3b. Anything to be said for a 4b? (just thinking out loud, not suggesting it)

I agree with you here flopdeck. My standard would be peel and see a flop against most opponents. Without a read i still think its standard. As played flop is fine, i think its a judgement call on the turn whether you want to play for stacks or not. I don't hate this fold but i tend to use this combo as a check/calldown blocking value ranges with your k and j, and unblocking all draws. I would call and call river on a large number of cards.

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so you call preflop and you're going to fold this? hmmmm

the answer is fold preflop so you don't get yourself in this situation. You have no reads on the guy and didn't even know he was a winning player. We cant just assume hes going to be light here. And if you do believe he is light and you do call. I sure as hell not folding that turn as he has double barrel bluffs in his arsenal if he's 3betting light in this situation.

Just fold pre and find better spots. you have over 100bbs. No need to get swifty having no reads on the guy

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You really shouldnt be entering this hand from utg 1. Blinds are very small so an argument can be made to mingle in some pots for cheap to try and establish things I guess. I think its a pf muck overall though. As played ,Once I get 3 bet and its so early , just throw the hand away PF IMO . Simply move on, here take my 100 and lets see how often this stuff happens in future action.

I raise KJs here. but I'm folding to the 3bet

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I think its a mistake not to open this hand, even from EP. Especially at this stage of the tournament, your primary goal should be to find a way to get in the pot with hands that you can stack your opponents with.

I would open any pair here, and most suited connectors, probably all the way down to 56s(I am looser than most).

The mistake i see people making is opening too many offsuit hands here(kqo,kjo,a10o etc) I would rather have KJs here than ako 100% of the time. Logic being that i can win a big pot with kjs when i make a flush or straight, ak and the like will win small pots or lose big ones most often.

Just my point of view, suited connectors and small pairs rise in value the deeper you are playing, and high card hands and big pairs drop in value.

you would rather have KJs than AKo? What am I reading here. You are more likely to lose a big pot with KJs than you are with AKo. You're more likely to win the pot with AKo than KJs. With AK you can get value from lower aces. You can make your hand look like a bluff if you flop a K. It's really all depends on how you play post flop and what your image is at the table combined with the combination of flops that will determine how much you win here.

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its probably table dynamics for me and my reality is , I dont enter MTT's no more this early. I HATE IT.... SNG is the only time I have this blind. ONCE IN A BLUE MOON will I enter that early. So thats why I felt an argument can be made. I prefer someone being pretty skilled at board play, not just ABC OOP UTG PFR KJs . Good way to start a spew off our whip cream on our stack if we are'nt careful

\

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its probably table dynamics for me and my reality is , I dont enter MTT's no more this early. I HATE IT.... SNG is the only time I have this blind. ONCE IN A BLUE MOON will I enter that early. So thats why I felt an argument can be made. I prefer someone being pretty skilled at board play, not just ABC OOP UTG PFR KJs . Good way to start a spew off our whip cream on our stack if we are'nt careful

\

agree that you should be pretty skilled post flop to raise this hand. As we will be put in many weird/tough situations.

This stage of the tournament is very annoying.

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agree that you should be pretty skilled post flop to raise this hand.

Exactly what I thought when I hit top pair! And I´m not.

Which is why I thought folding the turn would be best i.e I didn´t call preflop with a speculative hand in a 3bet pot to play top pair for a 100bb stack.

But in game, I told myself I block most of his hands that beat me i.e KK, AJs JJ etc and called down, losing my stack to his QQ´s.

Which is why (as you rightly said) you need to be pretty skilled postflop to raise this hand and I´ll add, you need to have the sense to fold preflop to a 3bet OOP without knowing his range.

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you would rather have KJs than AKo? What am I reading here. You are more likely to lose a big pot with KJs than you are with AKo. You're more likely to win the pot with AKo than KJs. With AK you can get value from lower aces. You can make your hand look like a bluff if you flop a K. It's really all depends on how you play post flop and what your image is at the table combined with the combination of flops that will determine how much you win here.

Yes I would rather have KJs opening this position with 100 bb behind. I agree with you it does depend on how you play and how the table plays. I'm just more comfortable playing my hands aggressively and winning chips before showdown and with KJs you can bluff and semi bluff on good boards, and with a hand like ako I find myself just winning or losing at showdown at this stack depth. Just personal preference I suppose

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I'd fold preflop, but if you are able to range villain well post and proceed cautiously then I don't think its going to be the biggest mistake in the world...I'd hate it a lot more if we were shorter stack depths.

KJs can make lots of strong nutted hands, even royal flush/straight flush, straights, flushes, etc., which are the sorts of hands we want to be trying to make when we are 100bb deep. On the other hand we have reverse implied odds, we dont want to get stacks in if we flop top pair with K or J, for e.g., 100bb deep.

Regarding ranges & positions etc.. Our range ought to be strong raising from EP, the EP flat caller ought to be strong as well, so when MP 3bets their range should be pretty narrow...I don't even think TT is 3betting there, maybe JJ+ and AK. We are blocking JJ and AK, so villains range will be weighted more toward QQ, AA, than it would otherwise be.

Against that we are in really terrible shape. Also we are sandwhiched between the 3better and the flat caller who can still come back over the top, and will almost certainly flat after we do. We'll be out of pos to both of them post..

But still, we're so deep with a hand that can make lots of nut combos post to stack villain. I don't think it's the worst call in the world, flatting here preflop providing our post flop play is strong, and that we proceed cautiously after the flop. I'd be folding preflop though for the reasons stated above...But I should do some more work on this spot because I'm actually not completely comfortable with how to proceed here. As played I fold the turn...Might even fold the flop without backdoors?

Reposted here from the other thread.

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