How Many Winners?

    What percentage of poker players are profitable? Judging from the number of times the question has been asked in various forums, the answer is amongst the game’s Great Unknowns.

    My answer was usually “about 10%”...although, I’ll admit, it was just a guess with no supporting data points. Until now.

    Recently, I tackled the problem from a somewhat controlled, meaningful analytic perspective. Necessary tools include a trustworthy data source, a reasonable sample size, and a player set representative of the worldwide nature of the game. I assembled a list of players from three different $4+.40 180-man SNGs, and three $20+2 180-man SNGs on PokerStars. I gathered names from three different times of day, over three different days. Eliminating duplicates from my data set, I had almost exactly 500 players at each buy-in level.

    Then, I looked everyone up on OfficialPokerRankings.com. Most people agree OPR is fairly accurate for MTTs; I was thus able to obtain the majority of results data I was seeking, for free. OPR doesn’t show you how much someone has lost, I calculated the values myself based on average buy-in, # of tournaments played, and total prize won. Such an algorithm does a terrible job figuring out rebuys, obviously…I found my results could trend high by 3-5% if someone had played a lot of rebuy MTTs. Given a clear discrepancy if someone was a winner or loser, I went with OPR’s numbers versus my own calculation.

    I also didn’t do any more digging than MTT results on PokerStars. No Sharkscope. No cash games. No other sites. Someone could show up as a loser on my list and be up on every other site – I could very easily miss the boat on a specific player. As it turns out, overestimating people as losers in order to hit my original 10% guess was the least of my concerns….

    What I found surprised the hell out of me:

    - Out of 502 players in the $4+.40 180-mans, there were 151 winners (30%) and 351 losers (70%)
    - Out of 501 players in the $20+2 180-mans, there were 195 winners (39%) and 306 losers (61%)

    Put them together, and 35% of the players are winners, 65% losers – almost exactly a 2:1 ratio. My estimate was incredibly off. Why?

    Did I pick the online tournaments with the greatest percentage of winners?

    My theory is 180-mans attract a higher grinder-to-casual player ratio than other tournaments or SNGs. If someone wants to sit down and play for an hour after dinner, they won’t be in this game. 180-man SNGs simply last too long. If someone wants to take a shot at running good for a huge return on a small buy-in, they won’t be here either; you can only win about 50x the buy-in. Those two groups – leisure-timers & shot-takers – constitute the highest concentration of casual players.

    Even at the lower buy-in, it’s clear the 180-mans’ appeal to people looking for multi-table sessions, and have as many tournaments running as they can reasonably play at a time. Of the total $4+.40 group, 108 players sampled have played more than 1000 tournaments on PokerStars. These players, by nature, are going to be more skilled…almost 60% of this subset has a positive ROI.

    The $20+2 group has even more players who are playing tournaments as a predictable income source. If they’re not true professionals, we might call them “semi-pros.” Over 1/3 of the sample size has played more than 1000 tournaments. In fact, more players in the list have played over five thousand tournaments (44) than have played less than twenty (41). Seventy-five players in the $20+2 group have over $10k in total profit. Almost ¼ of the players have an ROI greater than 20%.

    No wonder the $20+2 180-mans go off less than once an hour during most times of day, way less than they used to…it’s a far tougher field than a normal $20+2 freezeout.

    Some other fun numbers to throw out…first, the good:

    - most tournaments played = 38,573 (with an earliest result of May 2006, this player has been around for 42 months…playing an average of 31 MTTs a day…have mercy)
    - average In-The-Money percentage for the top 100 most profitable players = 15.8% (for those of you who ask “what ITM rate should I be targeting?”…this is a good answer)
    - highest profit by someone in a $4+.40 = $47k (he’s a long-time PocketFiver…congrats, who-know-who-you-are!)

    The bad:

    - greatest number of tournaments played without ever having cashed = 84
    - most money lost in buy-ins without a cash = $1,120, in 70 MTTs played (this type of persistence is, in some ways, quite admirable!)
    - most tournaments played by someone with worse than a -15% ROI = 11,013
    - most tournaments played by someone with worse than a -30% ROI = 8,968 (honestly, when you’ve lost $50k with an $18 average buy-in, wouldn’t you figure out you needed lessons at some point?)

    And the ugly…the worst “box score” I found:

    - # of MTTs played = 4771
    - Average Buy-in = $3.85
    - Total Spent in Buy-ins = $18,368
    - Total Prize Winnings = $4,672
    - Return on Investment = -75%

    At the end of the day, I don’t think I found a true answer to the “how many online players are profitable?” question. But it’s a start, and a thought-provoking start at that.
    Comments13 Comments
    1. Gregrrr

      I don't think your study considers the possibility that alot of players will profit at lower buy-ins and "lose-it-up" to the higher levels.  If you take bankroll mismanagement into account, your 30-39% winners are probably reduced to the 10% you were looking for.  Just a hunch.


      Gregrrr's Avatar
    1. nicelybaked

      most tournaments played by someone with worse than a -30% ROI = 8,968 (honestly, when you’ve lost $50k with an $18 average buy-in, wouldn’t you figure out you needed lessons at some point?)


      HOLY CRAP!!!.Am i really that bad?  I'm looking for a staker if anybody interested:)


      nicelybaked's Avatar
    1. racer

      good work graps, love the number crunching!


      racer's Avatar
    1. greenman21

      graps - what exactly do you consider profitable?  A lot of these people might win "big" at a lower buyin and continue to lose it at a large buyin - likely in one shot.  They may be extremely "profitable" at the low buyins.  That would keep the average buyins low and make the winnings look bad. So is profitable the overall profit or just at the lower buyins you studied?  


      greenman21's Avatar
    1. grapsfan

      Greg & greenman - if they showed up as +$ in OPR, I called them profitable.  If they showed up as -$, I said they weren't.  I didn't try to judge based on buy-in level, for the same reason you pointed out.  What's important is overall profit, not whether or not you can compete in one game and get thrashed in another.


      If someone wins $900 playing a bunch of 4+.40 180-mans, then loses $1075 taking five shots in the Sunday Million...I think they're a losing player overall, as would you, as would OPR.


      grapsfan's Avatar
    1. Spaceh0g

      I'd say you need to come up with a $ or roi cutoff that defines a winning player.  For exampe, if i make $20 over 1,000 games, i wouldn't really consider myself a winning player, i just have a cheap hobby...


      Spaceh0g's Avatar
    1. snaggs

      hey graps,


      Just thinking, while it's a start, sample size is still awfully small, and not really random as you have targeted a very specific subset of tournament poker players.


      Sure you included all the given players results, but the 180 man players tend to focus pretty heavily.


      What about doing the same study across 3 micro MTT's ($3.30 and under) 3 minis ($11) 3 Mids ($26- $55) and three highs?  Combine that with your previous results and while your sample size is probably a little small still to be perfectly statistically relevant, your range of player should have improved greatly.


      Of course this is easy for me to say lol, as it would be a buttload of work.


      snaggs's Avatar
    1. grapsfan

      spaceh0g, you're right that my definition of "winner" v. "loser" was quite literal.  But since I'm defining the term, I think my choice is as good as anyone else's.  What do you think is a good ROI for a "winning" player, if not just > 0?


      snaggs, I thought about doing something similar to what you came up with.  But entering data for about 1000 players took me about 6 hours of repetitive cut-and-paste.  If I took the tournaments you suggest, we're talking about 15-20x the number of players.  I'm just not up for it.  I'm not even sure I would have tackled this if I knew ahead of time how much it was going to take.


      I'd be more than happy to talk to you about what I did, and send you the spreadsheet template, if you'd like (I think I know what you're going to say...lol).


      Thanks for reading, everyone.


      grapsfan's Avatar
    1. Iplaythabored

      pretty interesting


      Iplaythabored's Avatar
    1. jw

      One of the factors that I think you have to look at as well are RB, bonuses and VIP perks...a casual player can be breakeven or slightly profitable/loser and still be profitable overall after grinding out a few thousand per year from RB, bonuses, etc.


      jw's Avatar
    1. truczat

      There is a simple filter on OPR-All Poker Rankings.


      The ZERO profit point in Pokerstars:


      300.000


      (1.000.000 active players in 2009, small SNG's cash excluded)


      We can suppose, that players won in MTTS will loose mostly all their bankroll in not catalogized games:cash,sng


      truczat's Avatar
    1. truczat

      My previous statemnet based upon cashflow upward directions.


      Most of the sick run MTT winner will loose when play in higher limits, which not their level of thinking.


      truczat's Avatar
    1. Landsbanki

      Here's the proportion of profitable players on each network curtesy of sharkscope. Only includes players who've played >100 SNGs


      Network % Profitable Players


      Merge 44%


      Cereus 39%


      B2B 33%


      Cake 32%


      Party 32%


      Ongame.it 31%


      Everest 31%


      Sky 31%


      PKR 30%


      PokerStars.it 29%


      IPN 28%


      SvenskaSpel 27%


      PokerStars 27%


      Pacific 27%


      PokerClub 26%


      Betfair 25%


      Ongame 25%


      FullTilt 25%


      iPoker 24%


      CryptoLogic 23%


      Peoples 22%


      iPoker.it 20%


      GiocoDigitale 17%


      Landsbanki's Avatar

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